About Buu and Kaioshins

[Dagon]

With the power gaps and SSJ multipliers that a lot of people like to use, Buff Buu ends up being significantly stronger than Kid Buu, anywhere from twice as strong to 100,000x as strong depending on the person. The problem with this is that South Kaioshin cannot be any stronger than SSJ2 Gohan because he couldn't lift the Z-Sword. "Oh he doesn't have to lift the Z-Sword, they never said he tried." I say no to that. The implication that Kibito gives when talking about the Z-Sword to Gohan implies all Kaioshins have tried and failed.

With that in mind, my question is: What evidence is there that Kaioshins by their very nature as Kaioshins cause abnormal absorptions? I see no evidence that they do. The only information we have in regards to Kaioshins in relation to Buu is that Kaioshin Ki cannot be used to revive Buu. Beyond that there is no information. Dai Kaioshin weakening Buu was caused by Dai Kaioshin's kind heart, not by him being a Kaioshin. Buu naturally takes on personality traits like when he took on Gotenks' attitude. Because of this I can't see a good reason why Buff Buu should be multi-folds stronger than Kid Buu.

 

[Six Trails]

What evidence is there that Kaioshins cause abnormal absorptions? I see no evidence that they do.

Dai Kaioshin weakening Buu..

 

[Dagon]

What evidence is there that Kaioshins cause abnormal absorptions? I see no evidence that they do.

Dai Kaioshin weakening Buu..

I should have been clearer: What evidence that Kaioshins by their very nature as Kaioshins cause abnormal absorptions? Dai Kaioshin had a kind heart, and that was noted as the factor that weakened Buu, not the fact that it was a Kaioshin that was absorbed.

 

[Pyro]

[No message]

 

[Son Gokū]

Buu's a strange guy...
Not really sure how his body works.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

This quote is the reason I'm a believer that South Kaioshin can't pull out the Z-Sword.

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P12.5
Context: after Kaioshin brings Gohan to the Z Sword
Kaioshin: “Please pull it out. As far as I know, nobody has ever managed to pull this sword out.â€￾

Yes, I can't prove that South ever tried, but Kaioshin's hype here just kind of seems totally meaningless if, for thousands of years, he's been around a guy who could not only pull it out, but balance it one finger and play hacky-sack with it. It's treated like some kind of holy grail with mysterious powers that Kaioshin and Kibito treat with total respect; I find it extremely unlikely that South Kaioshin would just let it sit there without ever even trying to pick it up for a laugh. Him being the burliest and most powerful implies that he actually cares about his strength; he's the last one who want to leave the Z-Sword sticking in the ground for no reason.

We are given literally no context for South or Dai getting absorbed, so I don't have a problem with him being weak. Perhaps Boo simply considered his power useful enough and decided to absorb him as an experiment; when he got a huge boost, he decided to absorb Dai. After that, he became more wary of absorbing, only using it as a last resort due to Dai's weird effects.

 

[Dagon]

We are given literally no context for South or Dai getting absorbed, so I don't have a problem with him being weak. Perhaps Boo simply considered his power useful enough and decided to absorb him as an experiment; when he got a huge boost, he decided to absorb Dai. After that, he became more wary of absorbing, only using it as a last resort due to Dai's weird effects.

That is your personal conjecture, not evidence. I like your reasoning for South Kaioshin not being strong enough to pull out the Z-Sword though.

Gohan and the others had kind hearts, but they strengthened Boo.

Goten and Trunks were unruly children that were looking for action. Good at the core, yes, but not "kind-hearted" or "jolly" as Dai Kaioshin is described. Piccolo had both good and evil in him, and he was by no means "kind" in any way. Gohan was the kindest of them all but he still enjoys battle when the occasion strikes. He's not the DBZ equivalent of Santa Clause like Dai Kaioshin.

So far all I've seen is conjecture based on extrapolating upon only a couple of statements. It's not solid evidence like with other debates where there's a pile of quotes and feats supporting the argument. The only reason Buff Buu ends up so strong on Power Level lists is people's adherence to power gaps and SSJ multipliers. I don't think that's a good reason to place him 10 or 40,000x stronger than Kid Buu.

 

[Papasmurf]

Boo didn't try to absorb Vegeta or even his counterpart Mr. Boo. Super Boo also only entertained the idea of absorbing a weaker opponent when he could augment his intelligence. I see no reason to believe South Kaioshin was horribly weaker than Kid Boo, yet managed to be considered worthy to absorb unlike the two that died before him.

Also, the hype argument is meaningless since "No one's ever ____" gets rehashed repeatedly ranging from learning the Kamehameha to forcing Freeza to reveal his third form, not to mention Piccolo Daimao remarking "No one can match my strength" - yet everyone Mr. Popo and above sorely outclasses him.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

[No message]

 

[Pyro]

Goten and Trunks were unruly children that were looking for action. Good at the core, yes, but not "kind-hearted" or "jolly" as Dai Kaioshin is described. Piccolo had both good and evil in him, and he was by no means "kind" in any way. Gohan was the kindest of them all but he still enjoys battle when the occasion strikes. He's not the DBZ equivalent of Santa Clause like Dai Kaioshin.

Fair enough.

So far all I've seen is conjecture based on extrapolating upon only a couple of statements. It's not solid evidence like with other debates where there's a pile of quotes and feats supporting the argument. The only reason Buff Buu ends up so strong on Power Level lists is people's adherence to power gaps and SSJ multipliers. I don't think that's a good reason to place him 10 or 40,000x stronger than Kid Buu.

Even disregarding the forced numbers brought upon by strict Super Saiyan multipliers, having South Kaioshin weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan wouldn't make up the difference between Buff Boo and Pure Boo. You still have all the forms of Gotenks to fit in there and arguably Gohan. Unless you had Buff Boo something like 1.5x stronger than Pure Boo, a weak South Kaioshin would have to result in an abnormal increase.

There's still the question of what Kibito's reference point would be when speaking of Gohan's amazing power at the tournament. His statement doesn't make much sense or hold much weight if he's not comparing Gohan to someone of his higher plane of existence, and we know it couldn't be East Kaioshin or Elder Kaioshin. And if he hasn't ever seen or heard of someone on his level being that strong before, where did he get his assumptions from? Simply because he's with the rulers of the universe?

Not to mention the pattern of Boo absorbing to gain the upper hand on an opponent. The only outlier would be absorbing Piccolo for his knowledge, and even that was to aid in his fight against Gohan. Why absorb South Kaioshin if he was so pitifully weak and posed absolutely no threat? Absorbing Dai Kaioshin could be explained by a reward system or addiction at the time, so to speak – he absorbed South and got stronger, why not absorb another and get even stronger still? Only it didn't work that way.

 

[POOHEAD189]

I think Pyrus is right. Goten and Trunks were unruly but that shows immaturity not lack of kindness. Plus Gohan could ride the Nimbus, and if I am not mistaken so could Goten.

 

[Dagon]

Even disregarding the forced numbers brought upon by strict Super Saiyan multipliers, having South Kaioshin weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan wouldn't make up the difference between Buff Boo and Pure Boo. You still have all the forms of Gotenks to fit in there and arguably Gohan. Unless you had Buff Boo something like 1.5x stronger than Pure Boo, a weak South Kaioshin would have to result in an abnormal increase.

You're still adhering to "gaps," which were never a 100% reliable way to determine battle performance.

There's still the question of what Kibito's reference point would be when speaking of Gohan's amazing power at the tournament. His statement doesn't make much sense or hold much weight if he's not comparing Gohan to someone of his higher plane of existence, and we know it couldn't be East Kaioshin or Elder Kaioshin. And if he hasn't ever seen or heard of someone on his level being that strong before, where did he get his assumptions from? Simply because he's with the rulers of the universe?

When East Kaioshin tells Kibito that he didn't see Gohan's incredible power, the implication there is that Kibito hasn't seen a power as strong as Gohan's before.

Not to mention the pattern of Boo absorbing to gain the upper hand on an opponent. The only outlier would be absorbing Piccolo for his knowledge, and even that was to aid in his fight against Gohan. Why absorb South Kaioshin if he was so pitifully weak and posed absolutely no threat? Absorbing Dai Kaioshin could be explained by a reward system or addiction at the time, so to speak – he absorbed South and got stronger, why not absorb another and get even stronger still? Only it didn't work that way.

We don't know the details of why Buu absorbed South Kaioshin. I hate to use conjecture, but South Kaioshin was the strongest of the Kaioshins Buu faced, who were the strongest in the universe at the time. He might have been a worthy opponent despite being so much weaker because of a factor other than his strength.

I think Pyrus is right. Goten and Trunks were unruly but that shows immaturity not lack of kindness. Plus Gohan could ride the Nimbus, and if I am not mistaken so could Goten.

Goten, Trunks, and Gohan still have violence within them, while Dai Kaioshin was gentle to the core.

 

[POOHEAD189]

Goten, Trunks, and Gohan still have violence within them, while Dai Kaioshin was gentle to the core.

If I remember correctly he was about to fight Buu

 

[Dagon]

Goten, Trunks, and Gohan still have violence within them, while Dai Kaioshin was gentle to the core.

If I remember correctly he was about to fight Buu

He enjoyed food more than he did fighting. Even weak little East Kaioshin was going to fight; the universe was on the line.

 

[POOHEAD189]

Yeah and Gohan enjoyed school more than fighting. And Goten and Trunks liked toys more than fighting. You can argue that the kids were a bit less than worthy, but Gohan was not a willing combatant. It was Videl and Vegeta that shoved him into it, and then the earth being on the line.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

This is the reason why I believe that the gap of Gotenks and Goku aren't that humongous.

 

[Dagon]

Yeah and Gohan enjoyed school more than fighting. And Goten and Trunks liked toys more than fighting. You can argue that the kids were a bit less than worthy, but Gohan was not a willing combatant. It was Videl and Vegeta that shoved him into it, and then the earth being on the line.

Gohan and the kids still enjoy fighting on occasion because they were eager to participate in the tournament and Gohan had no problems with fighting Dabra. Don't forget that Gohan became sadistic when fighting Cell and Goten & Trunks as Gotenks wanted to humiliate Buu for killing members of their families.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

And then, Gohan and Gotenks ended screwing up.