Venato's GT/Super Chain

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Mirai SSJ
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Mirai SSJ » 17 Feb 2017, 07:53

[
]In Anime, Goku kept the SSJG power inside him, which means that he's already "SSJG" as base, ssj, ssj2 and ssj3, just without the godly ki and its benefits (yeah, that's complicated). As such, the SSJB doesn't need to be way higher than his SSJ3 (post-SSJG).

Well, let's update my chain.
Well I am of the impression that there was a retcon that took place after the movie remakes when Toiryama intended for Base and Super Saiyan to be the only forms to improve on outside of SSJB. After the retcon I would assume everything with the multipliers went back to normal, which fits with Zamasu's statement of the Super Saiyan forms still being in the dozens of times. Getting to the point, I believe the Base and non-god forms were all nerfed following the Champa Saga, the only form that puts Goku and Vegeta at god tier is SSJB imo.
Well, :toei is inconsistent with the power levels anyways.

* On the hand, Base Vegeta could beat Gotenks. You don't like including fillers, but remember: :toei included several fillers from the original series. Plus, Goku mentionned Copy-Vegeta, making it canon to Anime.

* On the other hand, Piccolo is able to handle 4th form Frost, Fat Boo is apparently even stronger (Goku has more faith in him than Piccolo, even in Champa arc), and SSJ Gohan can hold his own against Goku's own SSJ form.

* The fact that they picked Roshi over Yamcha despite the fact the latter surpassed since back in Saiyan arc shows their regards towards Toriyama's powerscaling...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, as your theory is interesting, but since :toei are known for buffing characters for no reason, including Beerus, I'd prefer to avoid assuming what their intents are, even with Toriyama supervising.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Animelover5487 » 17 Feb 2017, 11:14

Well, :toei is inconsistent with the power levels anyways.
That's why I ignore most Toei-based material nowadays. If the scene is clearly in Toriyama's script I'll accept it as canon but nonsensical scenes from filler episodes like SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan I take with a grain of salt.
but remember: :toei included several fillers from the original series.
Yeah, but no one in the fandom takes them seriously. Dumb shit like Pikkon effortlessly defeating Cell yet being on par with SSJ Goku and Yamcha effortlessly defeating Olibu who isn't far from Pikkon/SSJ Goku or Kid Boo being the strongest Boo are prime examples of Toei's failure at powerscaling.
Plus, Goku mentionned Copy-Vegeta, making it canon to Anime.
Not sure if that would make it canon as it was mostly just a gag line.
On the other hand, Piccolo is able to handle 4th form Frost,
Piccolo stood no chance and was forced to use a technique that brought him well past his limits. All Piccolo showed was that he's good at defending himself against a beaten down Frost but offensively he couldn't do shit. Piccolo only needs to be stronger than Base Saiyans, whom were retconned back to Boo saga levels.
Fat Boo is apparently even stronger (Goku has more faith in him than Piccolo, even in Champa arc),
Which is why making Base Saiyans stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or worse god tier is impossible.
and SSJ Gohan can hold his own against Goku's own SSJ form.
That's the kind of dumb shit I am talking about. Gohan is a slacker. he can't be much stronger than ROF otherwise all the statements about him not fighting anymore make no sense.
The fact that they picked Roshi over Yamcha despite the fact the latter surpassed since back in Saiyan arc shows their regards towards Toriyama's powerscaling...
I can accept Roshi's power up, it's been many years since the Saiyan arc and even though it isn't in any way implied he's been training it's not impossible. Yamcha is also probably super rusty right now which also contributes to how Roshi surpassed him.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, as your theory is interesting, but since :toei are known for buffing characters for no reason, including Beerus, I'd prefer to avoid assuming what their intents are, even with Toriyama supervising.
That's one of the basis of my theory. We accept Beerus ever-so retconning power level, so why can't we accept they did the same thing with Goku/Vegeta? I mean the U6 fighters (excluding Hit) aren't very noteworthy to Goku and Vegeta, I would think if the whole team was at god tier that would be something incredible to them, especially a young Saiyan like Cabba reaching that level in base. That would make him a prodigy among prodigies.

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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Fearless Super » 17 Feb 2017, 11:22

The reason why Piccolo was able to hold his own against Frost was because he's skills and Frost even said that Piccolo is clever.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Mirai SSJ » 17 Feb 2017, 21:22

Yeah, but no one in the fandom takes them seriously.
And yet they consider the DBS Anime as canon :idk. Personally, I don't. In fact, I'm beginning to think that DB + Jaco + Interview are the only things that are canon.
Dumb shit like Pikkon effortlessly defeating Cell yet being on par with SSJ Goku and Yamcha effortlessly defeating Olibu who isn't far from Pikkon/SSJ Goku or Kid Boo being the strongest Boo are prime examples of Toei's failure at powerscaling.
Knew about it.

Not sure if that would make it canon as it was mostly just a gag line.
Now you're being picky. This being a funny line doesn't keep it from being canon. And Why Goku would refer to a moment that never happened anyways ? It doesn't make sense, does it ?
Piccolo stood no chance and was forced to use a technique that brought him well past his limits. All Piccolo showed was that he's good at defending himself against a beaten down Frost but offensively he couldn't do shit. Piccolo only needs to be stronger than Base Saiyans, whom were retconned back to Boo saga levels.
That part is simply your opinion, don't state it as if it was a fact. The rest is fair enough.
Which is why making Base Saiyans stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or worse god tier is impossible.
Everything is possible with Toei, unfortunately. Why would you accept that Goku (M13) is somehow stronger than Mystic Gohan and the others, but have a harder time doing a similar thing with Super ?
That's the kind of dumb shit I am talking about. Gohan is a slacker. he can't be much stronger than ROF otherwise all the statements about him not fighting anymore make no sense.
:toei never made sense. Which is one of the reasons I don't consider Anime to be canon. And Gohan did train with Piccolo, and might have trained afterwards. After all, he did said he wanted to become powerful to be able to protect what he hold dear.
I can accept Roshi's power up
What ?
it's been many years since the Saiyan arc and even though it isn't in any way implied he's been training it's not impossible.
Fine, let's just say for one second that this is true...what kind of training he has done ? When he has been training ? Why nobody said anything about it ? No evidence, no foreshadowing, yet you're telling that it makes sense...:idk
Yamcha is also probably super rusty right now which also contributes to how Roshi surpassed him.
So, you're telling that it's logical that 12 years without training are enough for another slacker, who previous trained his whole life to get at 139+, to surpass him without any problem
That's one of the basis of my theory. We accept Beerus ever-so retconning power level, so why can't we accept they did the same thing with Goku/Vegeta?
This is something that we've always been accepting with :toei. They always messed with the powerscaling in all productions. Fat Boo, Piccolo and SSJ Gohan being anywhere near as powerful as SSJ3 Gotenks (Potaufeu arc) is something that I already consider a retcon. So, you could say that people are already accepting a retcon. Just not the one that you want them to accept. As for me, I have no difficulty to "accept" it, the Anime is non-canon to me.
I mean the U6 fighters (excluding Hit) aren't very noteworthy to Goku and Vegeta, I would think if the whole team was at god tier that would be something incredible to them, especially a young Saiyan like Cabba reaching that level in base. That would make him a prodigy among prodigies.
Don't call him Cabba !!! It's Kyabe !

On a more serious note, Vegeta did encouraged him to do surpass him. Their apparent lack of interest might be justified by the fact that they weren't using their full power. They prefer to fight an opponent that pushes them to their limits, such as Hit.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Mirai SSJ » 19 Feb 2017, 20:39

My updated chain.

For Super, the chain only contains the character's powers from BoG arc to Trunks arc (fillers excluded). Universe Survival will be included once the arc (thus Super, probably) is over.

Warning: the chain is long ! I've spared you fodders and/or unpopular characters to keep it as short as possible, but it's still long. Read it at your own risk :)

[+] Spoiler
SSJB Vegetto >= Merged Zamasu > SSJ4 Gogeta > Omega Shenron > SSJB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ4 Goku (Beyond Limits) = SSJ4 Vegeta > SSJR Goku Black > SSJ Rage Trunks > SSJB Goku (Trunks arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Trunks arc) > Future Zamasu > Syn Shenron > KKx10 SSJB Goku = Hit (Champa arc) > Super 17 (post-Kamehameha x10) > SSJ4 Goku (Shadow Dragons arc) > Nuova Shenron > SSJB Goku (Champa arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Champa arc) > Eis Shenron = SSJ4 Goku (Super 17 arc) > Golden Freeza > SSJB Goku (RoF arc) = SSJB Vegeta (RoF arc) > SSJ Goku (Champa arc) = SSJ Vegeta (Champa arc) > 4th form Frost = SSJ Kyabe > 3rd form Frost > Base Goku (Champa arc) > Base Goku (RoF arc) > Beerus ("100%") > Freeza (RoF arc) > SSJ Goku (post-SSJG) = SSJG Goku (BoG arc) > Golden Oozaru Baby > SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc) > SSJ Goku (Super 17 arc) > SSJ2 Vegeta (Super 17 arc) > Super Oob = Beerus ("10%") > Super Baby 2 > SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta >= SSJ2 Vegetto (BoG arc) = Super Oob > Super Baby 1 = SSJ Vegetto (BoG arc) > SSJ Vegetto (Boo arc) > Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku (Baby arc)
Last edited by Mirai SSJ on 20 Feb 2017, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Fearless Super » 19 Feb 2017, 23:52

Trunks is not stronger than Vegito.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Mirai SSJ » 20 Feb 2017, 00:11

Trunks is not stronger than Vegito.
Spirit Sword > Final Kamehameha. That much, you can't deny.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Fearless Super » 20 Feb 2017, 00:13

Trunks is not stronger than Vegito.
Spirit Sword > Final Kamehameha. That much, you can't deny.
That's not Vegito's full capable lol. He nearly killed Merged Zamasu until he splitted.
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Re: Venato's GT/Super Chain

Postby Mirai SSJ » 20 Feb 2017, 01:41

That's not Vegito's full capable lol.
When you're trying to kill a genocidal immortal threatening the multiverse with an attack so powerful that it used up your fusion's power (causing it to last 5 minutes instead of 1 hour) and doesn't even leave you with enough power to turn into SSJB, it's quite obviously that there is not any restraint.

And you can't really tell me with a straight face that a Ki-charged punch would have been more effective to get the job done than the respective most powerful blasts from Goku and Vegeta combined into one attack.
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