Anakin Skywalker vs Kylo Ren and Rey

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Anakin Skywalker vs Kylo Ren and Rey

Postby Azazel » 31 Oct 2017, 14:14

Anakin is from Attack of The Clones and Kylo/Rey are TFA. :P who wins?
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Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Kylo Ren and Rey

Postby Southern Gothic » 31 Oct 2017, 14:25

Anakin destroys. The fact that he was even able to keep up with Dooku places him far above either Kylo or Rey, plus Kenobi's statement about having the potential to be on Yoda's level as far as lightsaber combat goes. Kylo's trouble with Finn really hampers him here as far as feats go.
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Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Kylo Ren and Rey

Postby Captain Cadaver » 02 Nov 2017, 13:05

Anakin destroys. The fact that he was even able to keep up with Dooku places him far above either Kylo or Rey
Anakin's Djem So is naturally effective at countering Ataru, the style Dooku primarily uses, which was the main reason he was able to put up such a performance.
plus Kenobi's statement about having the potential to be on Yoda's level as far as lightsaber combat goes.
I always took this as just being some sarcastic banter between them.
Kylo's trouble with Finn really hampers him here as far as feats go.
To be fair, Ben had been bleeding heavily from the blaster bolt wound in his leg, especially after augmenting his speed to outpace Finn and Rey's escape and was far from the right state of mind.

I'd still say Anakin would win, but only if it's in a battle area where he can keep them in a duel purely governed by Lightsaber combat. From what statements have been given regarding Kylo Ren's strength in the Force such as Luke treating his power with high regard, Snoke considering him the ideal embodiment of the Light and Dark Sides, as well as databooks referring to his strength in the Force as "immense" would all suggest Kylo Ren's raw Force power should be significantly above Anakin at this point. If the battle takes place in a spacious area where he can use this to his advantage, it's possible for the team to win.

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Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Kylo Ren and Rey

Postby Southern Gothic » 03 Nov 2017, 10:20

Anakin destroys. The fact that he was even able to keep up with Dooku places him far above either Kylo or Rey
Anakin's Djem So is naturally effective at countering Ataru, the style Dooku primarily uses, which was the main reason he was able to put up such a performance.
plus Kenobi's statement about having the potential to be on Yoda's level as far as lightsaber combat goes.
I always took this as just being some sarcastic banter between them.
Kylo's trouble with Finn really hampers him here as far as feats go.
To be fair, Ben had been bleeding heavily from the blaster bolt wound in his leg, especially after augmenting his speed to outpace Finn and Rey's escape and was far from the right state of mind.

I'd still say Anakin would win, but only if it's in a battle area where he can keep them in a duel purely governed by Lightsaber combat. From what statements have been given regarding Kylo Ren's strength in the Force such as Luke treating his power with high regard, Snoke considering him the ideal embodiment of the Light and Dark Sides, as well as databooks referring to his strength in the Force as "immense" would all suggest Kylo Ren's raw Force power should be significantly above Anakin at this point. If the battle takes place in a spacious area where he can use this to his advantage, it's possible for the team to win.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but take a different opinion when it comes to some of the specifics.

1) Dooku was a Makashi master, I believe, and not Ataru. A quick check points to this, but you may be seeing something I am not. He was noted for this since Makashi was rare among Jedi by the time the Clone Wars rolled around. I'm sure he was able to use Ataru, as well as all the other forms, with great proficiency, but Makashi was a signature for him. Secondly, Anakin didn't use heavy Djem So until their fight aboard the Invisible Hand in ROTS. Anakin was using Form V, Shien, in Attack of the Clones. More so, he wasn't terribly great at it. Dooku's minor struggles against Anakin in AOTC are noted for two things: Anakin's natural affinity for the force, and the fury he tried to conjure against Dooku after Kenobi was injured. All of this points to Anakin's inherent abilities more than his particular lightsaber style, at least in AOTC.

2) I agree that Kenobi's comments were banter, but I don't get any sarcasm from this. That would imply either no meaning behind his words, or an intention towards the exact opposite. We have no reason to believe Kenobi had zero weight behind the statement. Exaggerated, yes, as well as a mix of teasing and reprimand. But Anakin's progress was too well known for this to be just an offhanded remark devoid of meaning. Of course he wasn't just a few practice sessions away from being on par with Yoda, that's obvious, but what we do know is that he was well above his level and advancing through his Padawan training at a rabid pace. Surely Kenobi meant what he said to a point.

3) I concur about Ben's wound (although it didn't appear to be a leg injury, rather somewhere more towards the abdomen/hip). However, no matter where the injury came from, he was pounding at it in an attempt to bring forth some burst of power from that pain. This can be looked at two ways, and both look bad on him. First is that he pulled from this power and failed, something Anakin was able to do versus Dooku as noted above. The other way is that he successfully used his rage but it did nothing against Finn. Either way, I don't see any circumstances in which Anakin struggles under similar conditions against someone with zero force powers and no lightsaber training.

Adding to this, do we know for a fact that Ben used force speed to beat Finn and Rey to the woods? The duo was several stories above them in that station, looking down on where Ben killed Han. They would have had to climb back down that long ladder to reach ground level, giving plenty of time for Ben to get ahead of them. This is more of a personal question from me rather than a challenge to what you wrote. I never read the novelization so it might be in there. However, if it is true, I would take this and point to Phantom Menace where Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan used Force Speed to avoid the Droidikas and showed little to no fatigue afterwords.

Last few things here. Statements regarding Kylo's power are vague at best. This doesn't mean they should be totally disregarded, but we deal with these kinds of statements in Dragon Ball all the time, and they are applied to many Force users in the canon. I'm not denying his power, but we can't quantify it against anything, and certainly not in combat where he looked less than stellar. We know he's got decent mind control and Force Stasis abilities against humans and blasters, but we only saw the bulk of this applied to Poe and a Rey pre Mary Sue awakening. We have next to nothing when it comes to Ben in combat, training, or especially against another Force user.

Plus, if we are talking about non-lightsaber combat, we have Anakin's time in the Geonosis arena to further the argument for is superior skills. We don't see him do a whole lot here, but it is infinitely more that anything we have for Ben, which is next to nothing. I'd argue here that Anakin's use of Tame Beast puts him at an equal level to Kylo's Stasis. Even though the ability wouldn't matter in a fight between the two, it showed an advancement far beyond his level.

Lightsaber wise, we both generally agree that Anakin wins easily, since we don't even know for sure whether Kylo has ever even used a lightsaber as anything other than a tool of intimidation. He can't even built a properly functioning saber, and has to use old, defunct designs from ancient Malachor.
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Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Kylo Ren and Rey

Postby Captain Cadaver » 03 Nov 2017, 11:44

1) Dooku was a Makashi master, I believe, and not Ataru. A quick check points to this, but you may be seeing something I am not. He was noted for this since Makashi was rare among Jedi by the time the Clone Wars rolled around. I'm sure he was able to use Ataru, as well as all the other forms, with great proficiency, but Makashi was a signature for him. Secondly, Anakin didn't use heavy Djem So until their fight aboard the Invisible Hand in ROTS. Anakin was using Form V, Shien, in Attack of the Clones. More so, he wasn't terribly great at it. Dooku's minor struggles against Anakin in AOTC are noted for two things: Anakin's natural affinity for the force, and the fury he tried to conjure against Dooku after Kenobi was injured. All of this points to Anakin's inherent abilities more than his particular lightsaber style, at least in AOTC.
I meant Makashi. It's hard to remember which Form's which sometimes.
Adding to this, do we know for a fact that Ben used force speed to beat Finn and Rey to the woods? The duo was several stories above them in that station, looking down on where Ben killed Han. They would have had to climb back down that long ladder to reach ground level, giving plenty of time for Ben to get ahead of them. This is more of a personal question from me rather than a challenge to what you wrote. I never read the novelization so it might be in there. However, if it is true, I would take this and point to Phantom Menace where Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan used Force Speed to avoid the Droidikas and showed little to no fatigue afterwords.
It's less of a matter of evidence and more one of logic. Even given a better escape point, Kylo was shown to be limping somewhat from his injury shortly after being shot and was shown to have bleed significantly by the time they arrived in the woods. I doubt he'd be able to push himself that far without Force speed. I also agree it shouldn't take a toll on his stamina, but only if he weren't injured, which wasn't the case.

The rest of your points are fair enough.


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