Goku in M10

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Goku in M10

Postby Southern Gothic » 16 Jun 2015, 01:45

I have never doubted Goku was present during the beam struggle at the end of Second Coming/M10. Several characters notice him, including Broli and Goten. The dragon balls, despite acting uncharacteristically, do scatter.

Others have made an argument for the contrary, and I wanted to hear both sides.
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Goku in M10

Postby Pakl » 16 Jun 2015, 05:54

I made a thread about M10 Goku not being SSjin 2..

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">There have been much debates over Goku was a SSJ2 or just a SSJ in the end of the beam struggle. I am going to prove that he was actually a SSJ until the very end.

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Goku, Gohan and Goten are all shown as SSJs in this picture.

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This is a Movie 10 drawing from the Daizenshuu which shows Gohan as a SSJ and Goku's hair like SSJ style.

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However, this is another Daizenshuu drawing which shows Goku like a SSJ2. However, Goten's hair also stands more than normal. That proves that posters like that from the Daizenshuu can't be taken too seriously because they contradict themselves all the time.

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However, this is a picture from the movie showing Gohan has two bangs stand after Goku said "now" implying he might had been SSJ till the end.

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Another drawing which show Gohan as a SSJ2 and Goku as a SSJ.

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Another poster showing Goku and Goten are SSJs while Gohan was SSJ2.

As you can see, there are posters which support that Gohan and Goku were just SSJs and others which show Goku and Gohan have SSJ2 hair which means they contradict themselves and can't really be used for a total proof.

Now, let's get into the SSJ2 appearance.

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As you can see, SSJ2 Goku has 1 bang in the middle of his har and 1 small bang in any side of his hair. However, Goku in Movie 10 just had 1 bang stands after saying "now" which indicates that the reason why his hair changed was just because it got pushed back by the attack after saying "now"and there are far more evidence to support it as true.

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This is Goku in the Rosat when he powered up, you can clearly see that his hair changed into just 1 bang in the middle of his hair, similliar to Goku in Movie 10.

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Goku fired a Kamehameha at Frieza and had one bang stands just like in the Rosat and in Movie 10.  Where I get into that, basically when Gokuy powers up to FP, his hair chages into one bang stands as seen in the events I just showed while SSJ2 has two small bangs in the sides. Goku's hair in Movie 10 is the same thing like in the Rosat and when he attacked Frieza which is just the result of going FP. If Gokudid use SSJ2 in Movie 10 so he should have the same appearance he had vs Fat Buu.

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Goku has 1 bang stands here when he escaped from Kid Buu's blast but he was a SSJ. Remember, this is also after the SSJ2 Concept was known.

Goku having one bang is either when he uses max power, max speed, goes all out or fires a Kamehameha. Goku having 1 bang stands in the middle of his hair and two small bangs in the sides is SSJ2.

Now, let's get into the real argument to why Goku was not SSJ2.

Movie 10 was revealed when SSJ2 Goku was barely finished to be drawn in the Manga. It makes no sense that Goku can go SSJ2 in Movie 10 if the Manga just revealed his SSJ2 a few days before. Plus, Toei overall shows the forms in the Anime before showing it in the movies because the Anime came first. SSJ2 Goku was revealed in the Anime far after Movie 10 was revealed. Toei never even showed SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan in Movie 12 because they were not revealed in the Anime. Saying Toei showing a form in the movie before showing it in the Anime is like saying the Anime can show the events before the Manga did. Toei even waited until SSJ Vegeta would be introduced in the Anime so they can release Movie 6 despite the fact they copied his look from the Manga. Same case happened in Movie 10. Toei copied SSJ2 Gohan from the Manga but waited until his SSJ2 would be shown in the Anime. Toei showed the concept art for SSJ2 Gohan but never did with Goku implying he never was a SSJ2 somply because it was barely drawn in the Manga.

Manga > Anime > Movies.

Since SSJ2 Goku was barely drawn in the Manga, it makes no sense he can exist in Movie 10. Think about it, why would Goku go SSJ2 if the Omega Blaster got weaker and was most likely as weak as the first one when Goku arrived and they overpowered it? It makes no sense.

There are even evidence to support Goku's appearance in the movie being the same like Gohan when he beat Cell.

Goten never said "I wish dad was here" In the Japanese dub, Goten says "Shenron, help us" and the DragonBalls SEEMINGLY hear Goten. Then, Goku arrives. Notice when Goku arrives, he has a strange aura surrounding his body which shows it was just his spirit. Goku encourging his sons like he did with Gohan vs Cell and Trunks distracted Broly like Vegeta did vs Cell is the same so why should Goku's appearance be any different?

Goku is shown to be behind Gohan and Goten in the end of the beam struggle. Why is he behind? Yes, he is behind them, supporting them so they can use FP just like he did with Gohan vs Cell. In fact if you watch the Japanese dub, whenever someone transforms or goes FP, there is a background noise and Goku said "now" very quitely after his hair changed. The Daizenshuu even says "Is the Goku who appeared was real or not?" insinuating Goku's appearance there was just like with Gohan when he beat Cell. Goku doesn't have vody so he can't be real. Plus, the Dragon Balls should grant two wishes while it seemingly granted one and scattered. The Daizenshuu also says that Goku was donating his ki to Gohan which is also stated by Gohan in the Anime. That can easily be the case for Movie 10 Goku as his sons felt his present and ki in both events. Broly seeing Goku is also just to show that they are rivals IMO. Goku is after all Broly's number 1 enemy since they were babies.

Broly was beaten by SSJ2 Gohan + SSJ Goten + MSSJ Goku donating his ki like he did with Gohan vs Cell is implied.

Now, I am going to counter some points that I know Broly Supporters would bring in a debate.

1. Goku was shown as a SSJ in Movie 4 despite the fact that he was not in the Manga so Toei just shows their forms as they lie. That means Goku can easily be SSJ2 in Movie 101.

Counter Argument: The only reason why Goku had appeared as a SSJ is because Movie 4 is based on the Ginyu Saga where Vegeta describes Goku as the SSJ. This is why King Kai's words are the same like Vegeta when he saw Goku on Namek. There were statements about SSJ Goku in the Anime while there is absoluterly no statement or hint in the Anime that Goku has SSJ2. Plus, it's not like Toei showed the real SSJ design. They just showed their own form based on the Ginyu Saga events.

2. Goku used Kaioken X10 in the Movie 3 so thatshows Toei can do what they want.

Counter Argument: Showing a Kaioken Multiplier is very different than showing a form since it was not drawn yet. Besides, Toei most likely followed the logic of Saiyan Saga Goku who used Kaioken X4 at 8,200 so most likely followed math logic but never knew it was the case based on the fact that Toriyama had not made the Frieza Saga at that time and Goku being able to use Kaioken X20.

3. Goku's hair did change while Goten's hair didn't proving Goku was a SSJ2 in the end of the Kamehameha.

Counter Argument: If you notice, Goten's hair overall almost doesn't change like Goku when he powered up. Goku's hair changes when he fires a Kamehameha or power up to max like in the Rosat and vs Frieza but Goten's hair almost never did.

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Goten's hair doesn't change when he powers up or uses Kamehameha at FP like Goku.

With all of this, I think Goku being SSJ2 in Movie 10 is unlikely. Gohan going SSJ2 in the end is true though.

Now to counter some point that I have heard about Piccolo who "indirectly states" SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Adult Gohan are in the same ballpark.

Counter Argument: Piccolo never witnessed Gohan's fight vs Dabura. From the fact that BOTH Vegeta and Goku were surprised at how weak Gohan had become when he fought Dabura even after sensing his ki in the World Tourment proves Gohan is much weaker than they thought. There is no reason Piccolo should know how weak Gohan is then even if he felt his ki like Goku and Vegeta did and it's supported by the fact Piccolo seemed to think SSJ2 Teen Gohan and SSJ2 Kid Gohan are in the same level which is wrong. As we know sensing ki is not always the case as Gohan felt Cell's ki after he returned and still thought he could win. However, he just realized how strong Cell was after Cell used his ki blast. The difference between SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Adult Gohan has to be extremely massive because SSJ2 Majin Vegeta should be much stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who considered SSJ2 Adult Gohan trash because he is much weaker than when he was a kid
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Goku in M10

Postby Super Saiyan Overlord1007 » 16 Jun 2015, 08:40

I always question that and believed he wasn't necessarily there in person but in spirit like with Cell. My main reasoning for that is simply the fact that he's dead. Goku has already died once and used his get out of death free card and Shenron said reviving him again can't be done. Goku needed special permission from King Yemma to be granted the privilege of returning to Earth and that was a time deal for a day. Goku needs special permission to return to Earth yet Shenron can bring him back for 5 minutes, when he said he couldn't bring him back at all? How?!?

Another question is how does Shenron even hear Goten's wish when he wasn't summoned nor Goten actually spoke it? Why didn't Shenron appear the first time Goten tried to summon him? This is why Broly's Second Coming is one of my least favorite DBZ movies. It's just fan service to Broly fans and for every question it answers it just ask 1,000 more.

Broly's alive ok, how did he get to a ship in time to escape New Vegeta's destruction?

I'm going to assume Broly freezing over was a sped up process for the movie if so how did Broly survive underwater long enough to be frozen? If Frieza can drown Goku should Broly have been dead?

How did Shenron grant a wish without being summoned?

How did Shenron hear Goten's wish?

How did Shenron bring Goku back when he himself said it couldn't be done again?

The movie just raises more questions than it answers.
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Goku in M10

Postby Fearless Super » 16 Jun 2015, 10:53

Unfortunately, not Toei themseves could answer that.
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Goku in M10

Postby Mikey™ » 16 Jun 2015, 10:59

I do believe he was actually there, but I don't believe he was Super Saiyan 2.

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Goku in M10

Postby Southern Gothic » 16 Jun 2015, 14:04

I do believe he was actually there, but I don't believe he was Super Saiyan 2.
I'd agree with this for a couple of reasons, none of which come from guidebooks or secondary sources. This is just my own logic at work.

Toei always likes to stick Goku with regular SSJ mode. We saw them do this in GT, when he was rocking SSJ on villians who were smashing everyone else. In the Boo saga, SSJ Goku defeated Ultimate Gohan.

Goku hadn't attained the form in the manga or anime by that point. While Toei takes a lot of liberties, I doing this might be to much of an assumption from a storyline perspective. They would also have to anticipate the design. This happened once before with Lord Slug and the design ended up being off to a noticeable degree.

Broli's strength is something I am willing to be flexible on. However, showing no signs of struggle against SSJ2 Gohan, SSJ2, and SSJ Goten? Plus interference from Trunks? That is a horse sized pill to swallow. I believe Goku was aiding Gohan with power in the beam struggle vs Cell. Just not 100% power. I make the same stand here, that Goku was there to give a little push. So yeah, SSJ Goku is fine with me.
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Goku in M10

Postby Fearless Super » 16 Jun 2015, 14:14

I think the movie released before SSJ2 Goku revealed.
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Goku in M10

Postby Pakl » 16 Jun 2015, 14:41

The movie was revealed at the same time SSjin 2 Goku appeaed in the Manga

No way he can be SSjin 2 in the movie
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Goku in M10

Postby Lord Brofist » 16 Jun 2015, 14:41

Movie 10 premiered on March 12, 1994.

By this time the manga is now on the appearance of Fat Boo so by then Toei does know about SSJ2 Goku.

Also Broly doesn't casually take on SSJ2 Gohan, SSJ2 Goku and SSJ Goten. In fact he kind of gets his ass blown right into the sun. Broly was easily taking on the three SSJs. Toei is utilizing the image of Budokai Gohan in movie 10 down to the part where he had that stand of hair differences between SSJ and SSj2. You'll notice that in the movie.

In his fight against Broly, Gohan has the typical single hair but when he first starts powering up the Kamehameha he two strands, the thin one hanging out. Once everyone goes out, even Goku's hairstyle changes (and then before people say anything only afterwards begins blowing in the wind. Please note also that Goku's hair drastically makes a change yet Goten (Who shares the exact same hairstyle) actually still has the same SSJ look.

Also yes Goku was there. Goten looked straightup at him. You can hear the guy's footstep when he lands and even Broly's freaking out when he sees him.

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Goku in M10

Postby Syn » 16 Jun 2015, 20:34

Movie 10 premiered on March 12, 1994.

By this time the manga is now on the appearance of Fat Boo so by then Toei does know about SSJ2 Goku.

Also Broly doesn't casually take on SSJ2 Gohan, SSJ2 Goku and SSJ Goten. In fact he kind of gets his ass blown right into the sun. Broly was easily taking on the three SSJs. Toei is utilizing the image of Budokai Gohan in movie 10 down to the part where he had that stand of hair differences between SSJ and SSj2. You'll notice that in the movie.

In his fight against Broly, Gohan has the typical single hair but when he first starts powering up the Kamehameha he two strands, the thin one hanging out. Once everyone goes out, even Goku's hairstyle changes (and then before people say anything only afterwards begins blowing in the wind. Please note also that Goku's hair drastically makes a change yet Goten (Who shares the exact same hairstyle) actually still has the same SSJ look.

Also yes Goku was there. Goten looked straightup at him. You can hear the guy's footstep when he lands and even Broly's freaking out when he sees him.
Broly was killed by the sun, not the blast.
Unfortunately, not Toei themseves could answer that.
Fortunately, yes they did. If you're even half as observant as a Chief Keef stan, you'd see that Goten and Broly noticed Goku. Also, Trunks also said Goku was there, in M11.
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Goku in M10

Postby Mikey™ » 16 Jun 2015, 20:52

By this time the manga is now on the appearance of Fat Boo so by then Toei does know about SSJ2 Goku.
Yes, but that doesn't necessitate them knowing about his SS2 when they actually started producing the movie...
Please note also that Goku's hair drastically makes a change yet Goten (Who shares the exact same hairstyle) actually still has the same SSJ look.
Again, yes, but Goku's hair always does that, while Goten's never does..

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goku Kamehameha in RoSaT</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>
<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goku Kamehameha at Cell Games</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>

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<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goten Kamehameha in Movie 11</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>

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Goku being a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10 is possible, but not a necessity, in my opinion.
Last edited by Mikey™ on 16 Jun 2015, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Goku in M10

Postby Syn » 16 Jun 2015, 20:59

By this time the manga is now on the appearance of Fat Boo so by then Toei does know about SSJ2 Goku.
Yes, but that doesn't necessitate them knowing about his SS2 when they actually started producing the movie...
Please note also that Goku's hair drastically makes a change yet Goten (Who shares the exact same hairstyle) actually still has the same SSJ look.
Again, yes, but Goku's hair always does that, while Goten's never does..

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goku Kamehameha in RoSaT</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>
<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goku Kamehameha at Cell Games</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>

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<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goten Kamehameha in Movie 11</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>

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Goku being a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10 is possible, but not a necessity, in my opinion.
M10 concept art provided more evidence of SSj2 Goku.
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Goku in M10

Postby Pakl » 17 Jun 2015, 10:20

Movie 10 premiered on March 12, 1994.

By this time the manga is now on the appearance of Fat Boo so by then Toei does know about SSJ2 Goku.

Also Broly doesn't casually take on SSJ2 Gohan, SSJ2 Goku and SSJ Goten. In fact he kind of gets his ass blown right into the sun. Broly was easily taking on the three SSJs. Toei is utilizing the image of Budokai Gohan in movie 10 down to the part where he had that stand of hair differences between SSJ and SSj2. You'll notice that in the movie.

In his fight against Broly, Gohan has the typical single hair but when he first starts powering up the Kamehameha he two strands, the thin one hanging out. Once everyone goes out, even Goku's hairstyle changes (and then before people say anything only afterwards begins blowing in the wind. Please note also that Goku's hair drastically makes a change yet Goten (Who shares the exact same hairstyle) actually still has the same SSJ look.

Also yes Goku was there. Goten looked straightup at him. You can hear the guy's footstep when he lands and even Broly's freaking out when he sees him.
The movie was revealed 5 days after SSjin 2 Goku made his debut in the Manga

It doesn't matter if Toei knew, he can't be SSjin 2... No one knew he was

Syn, Trunks never said Goku was there.. That's dub error. In the oiginal Japanese he says:

"B- but we completely wiped him out that time with a Kamehame-Ha..."

https://www.youtube.com/v/JHqJWNq0NbA

Go to 18:50
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Goku in M10

Postby Pakl » 17 Jun 2015, 10:24

By this time the manga is now on the appearance of Fat Boo so by then Toei does know about SSJ2 Goku.
Yes, but that doesn't necessitate them knowing about his SS2 when they actually started producing the movie...
Please note also that Goku's hair drastically makes a change yet Goten (Who shares the exact same hairstyle) actually still has the same SSJ look.
Again, yes, but Goku's hair always does that, while Goten's never does..

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goku Kamehameha in RoSaT</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>
<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goku Kamehameha at Cell Games</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>

-

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Goten Kamehameha in Movie 11</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Image</div>

-

Goku being a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10 is possible, but not a necessity, in my opinion.
M10 concept art provided more evidence of SSj2 Goku.
Nope, it contradicted itself
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Goku in M10

Postby Super Saiyan Overlord1007 » 17 Jun 2015, 10:36

Broly was killed by the sun, not the blast.
Broly was seen both having his body breaking apart into separate pieces and losing blood before even making contact with the sun so he was more than likely dead upon getting there and the sun incinerated his remains.

As for the whole topic of whether Goku was Super Saiyan or not. The movie was released sometime before Majin Buu made is debut so before SSJ2 Goku was revealed in the anime and RIGHT after SSJ2 Goku was revealed in the manga so Toei may have had knowledge of SSJ2 Goku by the time the movie was released but definitely no knowledge of him having SSJ2 when production of the movie started and while it was being made. Just like with M8. It was more than likely in production during the Perfect Cell saga and before the Cell Games started in the manga and released when the Cell Games had actually started in the anime.
Last edited by Super Saiyan Overlord1007 on 17 Jun 2015, 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
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