Kaguya runs a Goku Gauntlet

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

BoZ
Saiyan Saga
Post Vegeta (not yet Namek)
M3 Goku
Namek Goku

I think we all or most of us can agree she ain't beating Frieza Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well, if you we use Vegeta's Gyarikku Ho as DBZ's minimum for Planet Busting in the canon, she can get up to M3 Goku, though far superior speed and fair hax could get her up to Namek Goku. Her potential abilities give her a chance of clearing the gauntlet, but I wouldn't say that's definite.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

I can't see any reason why All-Killing Ash Bones wouldn't be able to finish off any incarnation of Goku. As long as she can avoid his attacks and outspeed him, she'll win.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I can't see any reason why All-Killing Ash Bones wouldn't be able to finish off any incarnation of Goku.

There are quite a few versions of Goku that can easily dodge her attacks. Boo Arc Goku and BoG/DBS Goku are faster than her if taking calcs into account. If not treating the filler scene of Kaio-sama being unable to track SSJ Goku and Freeza's movements as an outlier, then the anime incarnations of Goku from that point and onward would also be far faster than Kaguya.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

I'm generally not a huge fan of calcs. They are far removed from anything the author wanted us to know and, I have a feeling that if multiple "experts" did the same calcs, they'd end up with wildly different results each time.

The fact is, Goku and Freeza fought for five minutes, Gotenks-Boo and Gohan fought for thirty minutes and Gotenks and Boo fought for five minutes. If any of them are light speed, way faster than light speed, or anything close, their fights should last for seconds, not minutes.

At least one Naruto character is lightspeed (Guy), and I consider him faster than anything in DBZ for that reason.

Anime DBZ could be light speed, with Gotenks's feat and GT Goku's Super #17 feat, but not manga.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That I agree with. I never said that the canon DB characters were Light Speed via calcs. If anything, it only makes them Sub-Relativistic, though still faster than what Kaguya showed. As far as I recall, there was no actual statement to Hachimon Guy being Light Speed, though your free to prove me wrong.

I wouldn't take the length of fights as a solid indicator of speed, considering such logic is not only ignored in fiction, but especially so in Battle Shonen. The Gold Saints and anyone on the same tier as them in Saint Seiya are Light Speed, yet their battles can last up to 1,000 days. Similarly, all the participants in the Soldier VS Super Phoenix match in Kinnikuman were FTL, yet the match lasted a hefty amount of time. If anything, it's more of an indicator to DB characters having very high stamina.

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

I can see her beating Saiyan Saga Goku and I feel like I'm being generous in saying that. In terms of DBZ power I'd put her inbetween 20 - 30k but I don't see her beating Namek Saga Goku.

 

[Abel]

Kaguya? She's not beating BoZ Goku, and even if she managed to do it, Saiyan Saga Goku destroys.

 

[Itachi]

Naruto is more versatile than Kaguya IMO, so he'd get farther than her. Somewhere around monster zarbon for Naruto and around Saiyan Saga Vegeta for Kaguya.

 

[Son Gokū]

She's well beyond Six Sage Madara, who was confirmed at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level. So I'd her around Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (not Great Ape). That means I'd stand a chance with a 4x Kaio-Ken during the Saiyan Saga.

 

[Abel]

Naruto is more versatile than Kaguya IMO, so he'd get farther than her. Somewhere around monster zarbon for Naruto and around Saiyan Saga Vegeta for Kaguya.

Neither of them has the sheer power, durability, and speed to reach there. Naruto would get undoubtedly defeated by BoZ Goku, and Kaguya by Raditz.

She's well beyond Six Sage Madara, who was confirmed at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level. So I'd her around Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (not Great Ape). That means I'd stand a chance with a 4x Kaio-Ken during the Saiyan Saga.

Confirmed to be at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level? Prove it.

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

Even with all of the enchantments and haxing power ups Naruto got before the series ended I fail to see how he'd still be weaker than BoZ Goku. By the time the series ended I can see them being late Saiyan Saga or Early Namek Saga tier. But I don't see them beating the Ginyu Force.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Neither of them has the sheer power, durability, and speed to reach there. Naruto would get undoubtedly defeated by BoZ Goku, and Kaguya by Raditz.

Using Piccolo's moon busting feat I assume? With Roshi's moon feat already being an outlier, there's no reason to assume anything different for Piccolo's, especially when that moon was created by Kami, someone who's at best an Island buster. Before you bring up the point of Magic =/= Ki, it's worth noting that most users of magic can also use it for battle purposes. Creating a moon to use against Piccolo would've been incredibly helpful to Kami if it was indeed the same density as our moon, wouldn't you say?

Also, what is there to suggest BoZ Goku has anywhere near the speed to take on Naruto? Taking into account feats and statements, we have Kyubi Mode Naruto dodging A's Lightning Release, which given the hype of it, was likely little different from an actual Lightning Bolt. By comparison, the only thing similar in DB was Popo's "Faster than Lightning" statement, which given the context and wording of it, was obviously a metaphor.
Even if we were accept calcs, that's not making anything better for the speed gap between Naruto top tiers and BoZ characters. Quite the massive opposite, in fact.

 

[Itachi]

Naruto is more versatile than Kaguya IMO, so he'd get farther than her. Somewhere around monster zarbon for Naruto and around Saiyan Saga Vegeta for Kaguya.

Neither of them has the sheer power, durability, and speed to reach there. Naruto would get undoubtedly defeated by BoZ Goku, and Kaguya by Raditz.

She's well beyond Six Sage Madara, who was confirmed at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level. So I'd her around Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (not Great Ape). That means I'd stand a chance with a 4x Kaio-Ken during the Saiyan Saga.

Confirmed to be at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level? Prove it.

Since I've already given tons of evidence on DBZF, and despite all that you still feel so strongly, I'll just summarize. If you bring up the same counters that I've already countered on F then I'll just pass and let this thread go to majority rule as it is.

• Naruto is shown to be near his father's speed through multiple comparisons. At least in short bursts through which he can maintain it.
  Most of DB feats you'll bring up for speed have been debunked as overanalysis here: http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8493518/1/ Also, the speed of the moon blast has been contradicted by faster blasts that have a lower speed than it (eg Nappa's blast against Gohan; canonically faster and stronger yet total speed lower than moon blast
  
• Goku/Vegeta may have a higher DC and would likely obliterate Naruto if they hit him with a decently charged blast. Issue? Naruto is too fast and perceptive.
  
• Naruto is physically stronger than Goku. 40 tons is not an outlier no matter how many muscle group irrelevant DB feats you bring in. If Naruto can force a close combat only battle, he'd easily take the cake right up until around monster Zarbon.

 

[Abel]

Neither of them has the sheer power, durability, and speed to reach there. Naruto would get undoubtedly defeated by BoZ Goku, and Kaguya by Raditz.

Using Piccolo's moon busting feat I assume? With Roshi's moon feat already being an outlier, there's no reason to assume anything different for Piccolo's, especially when that moon was created by Kami, someone who's at best an Island buster. Before you bring up the point of Magic =/= Ki, it's worth noting that most users of magic can also use it for battle purposes. Creating a moon to use against Piccolo would've been incredibly helpful to Kami if it was indeed the same density as our moon, wouldn't you say?

Also, what is there to suggest BoZ Goku has anywhere near the speed to take on Naruto? Taking into account feats and statements, we have Kyubi Mode Naruto dodging A's Lightning Release, which given the hype of it, was likely little different from an actual Lightning Bolt. By comparison, the only thing similar in DB was Popo's "Faster than Lightning" statement, which given the context and wording of it, was obviously a metaphor.
Even if we were accept calcs, that's not making anything better for the speed gap between Naruto top tiers and BoZ characters. Quite the massive opposite, in fact.

Creating a moon on Earth wouldn't be such a great idea.

23rd TB Goku's Super Kamehameha is moon level, as stated in one of the guidebooks. Even while being exhausted and all, he tanked a small continent level blast like nothing (the island they were on is small continent sized). BoZ Goku is even superior.

23rd TB Goku, while mid-air, dodged a blast that crossed most of the island in one panel. Don't you think that this is too fast? BoZ Goku is superior.

Naruto is more versatile than Kaguya IMO, so he'd get farther than her. Somewhere around monster zarbon for Naruto and around Saiyan Saga Vegeta for Kaguya.

Neither of them has the sheer power, durability, and speed to reach there. Naruto would get undoubtedly defeated by BoZ Goku, and Kaguya by Raditz.

She's well beyond Six Sage Madara, who was confirmed at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level. So I'd her around Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (not Great Ape). That means I'd stand a chance with a 4x Kaio-Ken during the Saiyan Saga.

Confirmed to be at Saiyan Saga Nappa's level? Prove it.

Since I've already given tons of evidence on DBZF, and despite all that you still feel so strongly, I'll just summarize. If you bring up the same counters that I've already countered on F then I'll just pass and let this thread go to majority rule as it is.

• Naruto is shown to be near his father's speed through multiple comparisons. At least in short bursts through which he can maintain it.
  Most of DB feats you'll bring up for speed have been debunked as overanalysis here: http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8493518/1/ Also, the speed of the moon blast has been contradicted by faster blasts that have a lower speed than it (eg Nappa's blast against Gohan; canonically faster and stronger yet total speed lower than moon blast
  
• Goku/Vegeta may have a higher DC and would likely obliterate Naruto if they hit him with a decently charged blast. Issue? Naruto is too fast and perceptive.
  
• Naruto is physically stronger than Goku. 40 tons is not an outlier no matter how many muscle group irrelevant DB feats you bring in. If Naruto can force a close combat only battle, he'd easily take the cake right up until around monster Zarbon.

But we do not exactly know how near. That statement could have been used to hype how fast Naruto have become. Shall I bring the supersonic 6th Gate Gai feat?

Not exactly right .

I don't think they need to even charge their blasts to be honest. They're quite fast too.

Then show me Naruto physically destroying multiple plateaus by jumping. I don't care much about the 40 tons feat, considering it's a lifting feat. You can explain it in a lot of ways, but not going to waste a second there again.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Creating a moon on Earth wouldn't be such a great idea.

23rd TB Goku's Super Kamehameha is moon level, as stated in one of the guidebooks. Even while being exhausted and all, he tanked a small continent level blast like nothing (the island they were on is small continent sized). BoZ Goku is even superior.

23rd TB Goku, while mid-air, dodged a blast that crossed most of the island in one panel. Don't you think that this is too fast? BoZ Goku is superior.

The fact remains he could still create a moon level object if he were capable of such a thing. It'd be a lot more effective than risking his life with the Mafuba.

The guidebook statement relies primarily on Piccolo's moon feat, or in other words, the DB Moon. As already covered, that isn't so impressive compared to destroying our moon. There's nothing to suggest the island was continent sized at all. If you want to delve into the territory of attempting to scale the size and whatnot, it's already been done.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19150

The feat was Island level.

As for the speed feat, that too has been analysed.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17311
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19179

Roughly between Mach 42 - 89. In other words, nowhere near the level of A, Minato and other notable speedsters in the Narutoverse, or even mid tiers if taking the rumour of Kakashi's Raikiri's origins with any value.

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

I think Goku can lift more than 40 tons. Hasn't he lifted more than that in Dragonball? Even so wasn't he in the otherworld and the gravity there is far greater than Earth's gravity? Not mention lifting the supposed strongest metal in the universe that had to have had some heft.

 

[POOHEAD189]

I think Goku can lift more than 40 tons. Hasn't he lifted more than that in Dragonball? Even so wasn't he in the otherworld and the gravity there is far greater than Earth's gravity? Not mention lifting the supposed strongest metal in the universe that had to have had some heft.

It's a Toriyama mistake imo. The manga is canon and you can't bypass that, but I'm under the impression Goku had been working out for days on end in otherworld. Plus punching with 10 pounds on your arm is much harder than lifting, so there's that too. But yeah, I find it impossible to believe that he only increased his strength by 2x from DB to Buu saga, especially since his powerlevel needed to be higher in order to hurt other villains with punches.
The entire "physical strength doesn't equal ki" is BS to me. If that were true, and physical limitations were so...limited, then Chaozu could blast Semi Perfect Cell apart simply because Cell's physical body cannot compete with Chaozu's ki strength.

 

[Abel]

Creating a moon on Earth wouldn't be such a great idea.

23rd TB Goku's Super Kamehameha is moon level, as stated in one of the guidebooks. Even while being exhausted and all, he tanked a small continent level blast like nothing (the island they were on is small continent sized). BoZ Goku is even superior.

23rd TB Goku, while mid-air, dodged a blast that crossed most of the island in one panel. Don't you think that this is too fast? BoZ Goku is superior.

The fact remains he could still create a moon level object if he were capable of such a thing. It'd be a lot more effective than risking his life with the Mafuba.

The guidebook statement relies primarily on Piccolo's moon feat, or in other words, the DB Moon. As already covered, that isn't so impressive compared to destroying our moon. There's nothing to suggest the island was continent sized at all. If you want to delve into the territory of attempting to scale the size and whatnot, it's already been done.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19150

The feat was Island level.

As for the speed feat, that too has been analysed.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17311
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19179

Roughly between Mach 42 - 89. In other words, nowhere near the level of A, Minato and other notable speedsters in the Narutoverse, or even mid tiers if taking the rumour of Kakashi's Raikiri's origins with any value.

But it'll destroy life on Earth, and probably he couldn't do it in battle. It could take a lot of preparation time or something. We do not know how it's done, and we should leave that point. Not a great idea to continue discussing something that we don't even know.

How isn't it as impressive compared to destroying our moon? You have no evidence to claim such thing.

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Scaling is also not the best thing in the world.

That feat is analysed from their scales of the island. It should be much more impressive if they were using the real size of the island.

You're really going overboard. The absolute top tiers of the verse are MHS+ and the people you just mentioned are HS at the best. Sage Mode Naruto couldn't move from where he was to Pain in five seconds, and he's not far from the people you just listed. So there's that I guess.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Naruto characters may not be able to blow up a moon or planet or whatever, but that's hardly the measure of someone's battle power. Naruto has all kinds of instant kill attacks that DBZ can't resist; Kaguya has all-killing ash bones, Oonoki has dust release (attacks on a molecular level), Naruto has the Rasenshuriken (attacks on a cellular level) and Guy has physical feats on par with powerful DBZ characters.

On the other hand, Naruto characters may not be as fast as we think they are. No one really remembers this technique, as Sasuke only used it once, but take a look:

A lightning speed attack is called "inescapable", and indeed Itachi was unable to avoid it.