My Power Chain(Late Sagas): CRITIQUE NOW!

[Dagon]

Here's my current placement of characters, from strongest to weakest, with a Legend to help:

Legend:
>>>>: Large(tank) gap
>>>: Significant(stomp) gap
>>: Considerable advantage(stomp with effort) gap
>: Notable(requires effort) gap
~: On par(practically equal either way)
=: Absolutely equal

Gohan-Buu: 67,750,000,000>>
Gotenks-Buu: 58,000,000,000>>>
Ultimate Gohan: 36,000,000,000>
Piccolo/Goten/Trunks-Buu: 31,750,000,000~
SSJ3 Gotenks: 30,000,000,000~
Buff Buu: 29,000,000,000>
Super Buu: 27,000,000,000~
Fat Buu(Max): 27,000,000,000>>
Kid Buu: 25,000,000,000~
SSJ3 Goku: 24,000,000,000>>
Pure Evil Buu: 16,000,000,000~
Fat Buu(Power-Up 3): 15,000,000,000>>
Mr. Buu: 11,000,000,000>
Fat Buu(Power-Up 2): 9,000,000,000>>
Fat Buu(Power-Up 1): 7,000,000,000>
Majin/SSJ2 Vegeta: 6,000,000,000=
SSJ2 Goku: 6,000,000,000>
M10 LSSJ Broly: 5,300,000,000>
M8 LSSJ Broly: 5,000,000,000~
Super Perfect Cell: 5,000,000,000~
SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 5,000,000,000>
Fat Buu(Initial): 4,800,000,000~
Buff/Giant Perfect Cell: 4,800,000,000>
Dabura: 4,300,000,000~
SSJ2 Adult Gohan: 4,200,000,000>
SSJ Gotenks(Post-RoSaT): 3,750,000,000~
Full-Power Perfect Cell: 3,600,000,000>
SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT): 3,000,000,000~
SSJ Goku: 3,000,000,000=
SSJ Majin Vegeta: 3,000,000,000>
M10 SSJ Broly: 2,650,000,000>
M8 SSJ Broly: 2,500,000,000~
SSJ Kid Gohan: 2,500,000,000~
SSJ Pre-Majin Vegeta: 2,400,000,000~
Suppressed Perfect Cell: 2,400,000,000>
SSJ Adult Gohan: 2,100,000,000~
Cell Games SSJ Goku: 2,000,000,000

Tell me if I missed anyone and how your opinion is different from this, be it by changing the rank or the magnitude of the gaps.

 

[kriss-]

Please include the new canon material.

 

[Pyro]

The only glaring discrepancy is Gotenks' non-SSj3 power, but I'm not really looking forward to a long debate about it...

 

[Dagon]

I'm not a fan of lowered multipliers for fusions, and I won't get into a debate about it either.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

You're not going to discuss it? Why did you even post it?

I'll just ask you two questions. Why did Piccolo let Goten and Trunks have a nap after meeting Fat Boo? What changed when Super Boo showed up?

It's not about multipliers, it's about cause and effect, it's about character behavior.

 

[Dagon]

Ok I'll discuss it a tad. No one mentions saiyan forms being different for fusions, so I don't treat them differently.

As for strength placements, Battle of Gods and DBSuper suggest that the gap between Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan wasn't huge because Goku surpassed them and was still weaker than Freeza in base form by a significant amount. If for argument's sake we go by SSJ Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku as the old popular interpretation proports, we'd get this:

DBSuper Goku:
Base: 100,000,000
SSJ: 5,000,000,000
SSJ2: 10,000,000,000
SSJ3: 40,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan: 35,000,000,000

SSJ3 Gotenks: 30,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks: 3,750,000,000

Buu Saga Goku:
SSJ3: 3,750,000,000
SSJ2: 937,500,000
SSJ1: 458,750,000
Base: 9,375,000

Going by that old interpretation Goku ends up being very very low. Perhaps if you believe Super Perfect Cell is a poultry 700 million then it could work, but I don't roll that way, and I don't think a lot of other people do either.

 

[SuperGogeta]

Here's my current placement of characters, from strongest to weakest, with a Legend to help:

Legend:
>>>>: Large(tank) gap
>>>: Significant(stomp) gap
>>: Considerable advantage(stomp with effort) gap
>: Notable(requires effort) gap
~: On par(practically equal either way)
=: Absolutely equal

Gohan-Buu>>
Gotenks-Buu>>>
Ultimate Gohan>>
SSJ3 Gotenks>
Super Buu>>
SSJ3 Goku~
Kid Buu>>
Fat Buu>>
Pure Evil Buu>
Mr. Buu~
Power-Up 2 Fat Buu>>
Majin/SSJ2 Vegeta=
SSJ2 Goku~
Power-Up 1 Fat Buu>
M10 LSSJ Broly~
Super Perfect Cell~
SSJ2 Kid Gohan>
Initial Fat Buu>
SSJ2 Adult Gohan~
Dabura~
SSJ Gotenks~
Buff/Giant Perfect Cell>>
Full-Power Perfect Cell~
M8 LSSJ Broly>
SSJ Goku=
SSJ Majin Vegeta>
SSJ Pre-Majin Vegeta>
SSJ Kid Gohan>
SSJ Adult Gohan>
Suppressed Perfect Cell>
Cell Games SSJ Goku

Tell me if I missed anyone and how your opinion is different from this, be it by changing the rank or the magnitude of the gaps.

SSJ Adult Gohan should be = CG Goku and Dabura
SSJ Kid Gohan should be around SSJ Majin Vegeta, not below
M8 Broly is around CG Goku, IMO
SSJ Gotenks Pre
should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku
M10 Broly is much weaker than Kid Gohan and stronger than Adult Gohan IMO
i don't see another problem with it
[/quote]

 

[kriss-]

Ok I'll discuss it a tad. No one mentions saiyan forms being different for fusions, so I don't treat them differently.

As for strength placements, Battle of Gods and DBSuper suggest that the gap between Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan wasn't huge because Goku surpassed them and was still weaker than Freeza in base form by a significant amount. If for argument's sake we go by SSJ Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku as the old popular interpretation proports, we'd get this:

DBSuper Goku:
Base: 100,000,000
SSJ: 5,000,000,000
SSJ2: 10,000,000,000
SSJ3: 40,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan: 35,000,000,000

SSJ3 Gotenks: 30,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks: 3,750,000,000

Buu Saga Goku:
SSJ3: 3,750,000,000
SSJ2: 937,500,000
SSJ1: 458,750,000
Base: 9,375,000

Going by that old interpretation Goku ends up being very very low. Perhaps if you believe Super Perfect Cell is a poultry 700 million then it could work, but I don't roll that way, and I don't think a lot of other people do either.

You're making one huge mistake:

a) Assuming Gotenks Ssj Pre is Goku Ssj3 tier. He wasn't even sensed from the Kaioshin realm, therefore the power scaling is wrong by default.
b) Assuming Gotenks Base Post is superior to Gotenks Ssj Pre. If you have Gotenks Ssj Pre equal to Goku Ssj3 and Gotenks Base Post superior to Gotenks Ssj Pre -where Trunks clearly states Gotenks Base Post is about equal to the previous Majin they seen, Fat Boo (Nobody says Boo made a power increase), than it's an automatic contradiction on your part and also wrong by default. Fat Boo is only 2.5x Teen Gohan (as shown by feats), and feats over-ride speculation and statements. So Gotenks Base Post is only 20-25% stronger than the Ssj2's at best.
c) Making Goku so weak is laughable.

You're taking the 'weaker than Frieza statement too seriously. One can counter by stating Goku was suppressed. Nothing is wrong with it because:

a) Nothing contradicts it.
b) Goku was calm and stationary.
c) The art-work completely agrees.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Pyro]

Ok I'll discuss it a tad. No one mentions saiyan forms being different for fusions, so I don't treat them differently.

As for strength placements, Battle of Gods and DBSuper suggest that the gap between Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan wasn't huge because Goku surpassed them and was still weaker than Freeza in base form by a significant amount. If for argument's sake we go by SSJ Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku as the old popular interpretation proports, we'd get this:

DBSuper Goku:
Base: 100,000,000
SSJ: 5,000,000,000
SSJ2: 10,000,000,000
SSJ3: 40,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan: 35,000,000,000

SSJ3 Gotenks: 30,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks: 3,750,000,000

Buu Saga Goku:
SSJ3: 3,750,000,000
SSJ2: 937,500,000
SSJ1: 458,750,000
Base: 9,375,000

Going by that old interpretation Goku ends up being very very low. Perhaps if you believe Super Perfect Cell is a poultry 700 million then it could work, but I don't roll that way, and I don't think a lot of other people do either.

You're making one huge mistake:

a) Assuming Gotenks Ssj Pre is Goku Ssj3 tier. He wasn't even sensed from the Kaioshin realm, therefore the power scaling is wrong by default.
b) Assuming Gotenks Base Post is superior to Gotenks Ssj Pre. If you have Gotenks Ssj Pre equal to Goku Ssj3 and Gotenks Base Post superior to Gotenks Ssj Pre -where Trunks clearly states Gotenks Base Post is about equal to the previous Majin they seen, Fat Boo (Nobody says Boo made a power increase), than it's an automatic contradiction on your part and also wrong by default. Fat Boo is only 2.5x Teen Gohan (as shown by feats), and feats over-ride speculation and statements. So Gotenks Base Post is only 20-25% stronger than the Ssj2's at best.
c) Making Goku so weak is laughable.

You're taking the 'weaker than Frieza statement too seriously. One can counter by stating Goku was suppressed. Nothing is wrong with it because:

a) Nothing contradicts it.
b) Goku was calm and stationary.
c) The art-work completely agrees.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2091668-massive-debunking-of-gokuism/#m37824474

 

[kriss-]

Ok I'll discuss it a tad. No one mentions saiyan forms being different for fusions, so I don't treat them differently.

As for strength placements, Battle of Gods and DBSuper suggest that the gap between Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan wasn't huge because Goku surpassed them and was still weaker than Freeza in base form by a significant amount. If for argument's sake we go by SSJ Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku as the old popular interpretation proports, we'd get this:

DBSuper Goku:
Base: 100,000,000
SSJ: 5,000,000,000
SSJ2: 10,000,000,000
SSJ3: 40,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan: 35,000,000,000

SSJ3 Gotenks: 30,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks: 3,750,000,000

Buu Saga Goku:
SSJ3: 3,750,000,000
SSJ2: 937,500,000
SSJ1: 458,750,000
Base: 9,375,000

Going by that old interpretation Goku ends up being very very low. Perhaps if you believe Super Perfect Cell is a poultry 700 million then it could work, but I don't roll that way, and I don't think a lot of other people do either.

You're making one huge mistake:

a) Assuming Gotenks Ssj Pre is Goku Ssj3 tier. He wasn't even sensed from the Kaioshin realm, therefore the power scaling is wrong by default.
b) Assuming Gotenks Base Post is superior to Gotenks Ssj Pre. If you have Gotenks Ssj Pre equal to Goku Ssj3 and Gotenks Base Post superior to Gotenks Ssj Pre -where Trunks clearly states Gotenks Base Post is about equal to the previous Majin they seen, Fat Boo (Nobody says Boo made a power increase), than it's an automatic contradiction on your part and also wrong by default. Fat Boo is only 2.5x Teen Gohan (as shown by feats), and feats over-ride speculation and statements. So Gotenks Base Post is only 20-25% stronger than the Ssj2's at best.
c) Making Goku so weak is laughable.

You're taking the 'weaker than Frieza statement too seriously. One can counter by stating Goku was suppressed. Nothing is wrong with it because:

a) Nothing contradicts it.
b) Goku was calm and stationary.
c) The art-work completely agrees.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2091668-massive-debunking-of-gokuism/#m37824474

I don't feel like reading all of that. Pick out specific points and copy and paste here please.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

[No message]

 

[kriss-]

The boys already fused and couldn't do anything until the next fusion. So yes, Piccolo allowed them to take a nap.

The change in heart regarding Super Boo was that he's now able to sense Chi and find their location. Fat Boo couldn't. Goku bought time with Fat Boo but with Super Boo, that didn't matter; putting everyone in danger.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

[No message]

 

[Dagon]

SSJ Adult Gohan should be = CG Goku and Dabura
SSJ Kid Gohan should be around SSJ Majin Vegeta, not below
M8 Broly is around CG Goku, IMO
SSJ Gotenks Pre
should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku
M10 Broly is much weaker than Kid Gohan and stronger than Adult Gohan IMO
i don't see another problem with it

I tweaked a bit of the bottom. I changed it to this:

SSJ Pre-Majin Vegeta~
SSJ Kid Gohan>
Suppressed Perfect Cell>
SSJ Adult Gohan~
Cell Games SSJ Goku

After thinking about it again I believe that is the better placement. As for your other points:

I believe Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, and I'm not sorry.

I have Movie 8 characters equal to Cell Games characters, so Broly should be around FP Cell based on that, and I'm not sorry.

 

[SuperGogeta]

SSJ Adult Gohan should be = CG Goku and Dabura
SSJ Kid Gohan should be around SSJ Majin Vegeta, not below
M8 Broly is around CG Goku, IMO
SSJ Gotenks Pre
should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku
M10 Broly is much weaker than Kid Gohan and stronger than Adult Gohan IMO
i don't see another problem with it

I tweaked a bit of the bottom. I changed it to this:

SSJ Pre-Majin Vegeta~
SSJ Kid Gohan>
Suppressed Perfect Cell>
SSJ Adult Gohan~
Cell Games SSJ Goku

After thinking about it again I believe that is the better placement. As for your other points:

I believe Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, and I'm not sorry.

I have Movie 8 characters equal to Cell Games characters, so Broly should be around FP Cell based on that, and I'm not sorry.

it seems Legit, IMO
i have M8 LSSJ Broly = FP SSJ Goku (CG) since Z Fighters are much weaker IMO
FP SSJ Goku (CG) >>>> Super Vegeta >/= M8 SSJ Goku >> M8 SSJ Vegeta =/> Cell Saga SSJ Vegeta = Cell Saga and M8 SSJ Trunks > SSJ Gohan (M8) >/>>> Kamiccolo[/quote]

 

[Dagon]

New Minor series of revisions, with Power Levels for clarification. Criticism Welcome.