new DB Power levels

[ahill1]

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This will be a semi conservative list, in which I don't see the need to blow the gaps all that much, all while not seeing the need to to squeeze them down below necessity... And will be adotping a 10x SSJ gap post SSJ mastering after the RoSaT, as a way to have the base kids on part with 18 more or less and fit with AT's sentiment of drawing the SSJ more as a 10x boost... And in universe, it can maybe be argued that once making the SSJ a natural state, almost similar to base, they can draw more of their base power channeling the same feeling they use to go SSJ, therein accessing a higher portion of their SSJ powers while in base.


FUTURE TRUNKS ARRIVAL


Yamcha : 80,000
Tenshinhan : 120,000
Kuririn : 200,000
Son Gohan : 800,000

Piccolo : 2,700,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000

King Cold : 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 90,000,000
--- FP : 160,000,000

Future Trunks : 4,000,000
--- SSJ : 200,000,000

Son Goku : 4,400,000
--- SSJ : 220,000,000



ANDROIDS ARRIVAL


Yamcha : 2,200,000
Tenshinhan : 3,000,000
Kuririn : 4,000,000

Son Gohan : 5,300,000

Android 19 : 160,000,000
--- post KMHMH : 200,000,000
--- post weakened base Goku : 201,500,000

Android 20 : 180,000,000
-- post Vegeta's blast : 202,000,000
-- post suppressed piccolo : 222,000,000

Piccolo : 260,000,000

Son Goku : 6,600,000
--- SSJ : 330,000,000
--- Sick SSJ : 235,000,000

Vegeta : 6,800,000
--- SSJ : 340,000,000

Future Trunks : 6,000,000
--- SSJ : 300,000,000

Android 18 : 450,000,000
Android 17 : 500,000,000


Imperfect Cell (initially) : 360,000,000
Piccolo w/Kami (weights) : 450,000,000


--------


Android 17 : 500,000,000
Piccolo (FP) : 500,000,000

Imperfect Cell (post humans) : 750,000,000
Android 16 : 750,000,000

Semi Cell (initially) : 1,125,000,000
--- FP : 1,350,000,000

Vegeta (post RoSaT)
--- SSJ : 1,228,500,000
--- SSJG2 : 1,755,000,000

Future Trunks (post RoSaT)
--- SSJ : 1,150,000,000
--- SSJG2 : 1,643,000,000

Perfect Cell (Vs vegeta) : 2,632,500,000
Future Trunks SSJG3 : 3,200,000,000
---- speed : 900,000,000


Son Goku MSSJ [50%] : 2,500,000,000


---- CELL GAMES


Yamcha : 2,200,000
Tenshinhan : 3,000,000
Kuririn : 4,000,000

Android 16 : 750,000,000

Piccolo : 2,800,000,000
Future Trunks : 320,000,000
--- SSJ : 3,200,000,000
Vegeta : 330,000,000
--- SSJ : 3,300,000,000

Son Goku : 500,000,000
--- SSJ (100%) : 5,000,000,000

Son Gohan : 600,000,000
--- SSJ : 6,000,000,000

Cell (Vs Goku) : 5,500,000,000
--- real speed : 6,250,000,000

Cell Juniors [each] : 3,500,000,000

---

Son Gohan SSJ2 (little boost on top) : 13,500,000,000

Cell (full power) : 8,333,000,000

Super Perfect Cell : 12,500,000,000




------ BOO SAGA



Mr. Satan : 7
Videl : 9
Spopovitch : 11
Yamu : 11

Pui Pui : 30,000,000

Android 18 : 450,000,000

Yakon : 750,000,000

Piccolo : 3,300,000,000

Goten : 425,000,000
--- SSJ : 4,250,000,000
Kid Trunks : 435,000,000
--- SSJ : 4,350,000,000

Kaioshin : 5,000,000,000

Son Gohan : 500,000,000
--- SSJ : 5,000,000,000
--- SSJ2 : 10,000,000,000
---- SSJ 1.5 (Vs Dabura) : 7,500,000,000

---> I believe Gohan was in an intermediate state when fighting Dabra. In the half way there to become a SSJ2. That also appeases both theories


Dabra : 8,333,000,000

Vegeta : 625,000,000
--- SSJ : 6,250,000,000
--- SSJ2 : 12,500,000,000

Son Goku : 750,000,000
--- SSJ : 7,500,000,000
--- SSJ2 : 15,000,000,000

Majin Vegeta SSJ : 7,500,000,000
-- SSJ2 : 15,000,000,000

Son Gohan (hypothetically enraged, FP) : 13,500,000,000

---> would recover his CGs power in case he could cut loose like he did Vs Cell


Fat Boo (initially, scoffed by Vegeta) : 12,000,000,000
--- powered up : 17,000,000,000
--- small power up : 18,000,000,000
--- angry explosion : 40,000,000,000
--- FP, vs SSJ3 Goku : 50,000,000,000

Son Goku SSJ3 : 60,000,000,000



Gotenks : 7,000,000,000
--- SSJ : 70,000,000,000


Grey Boo : 30,000,000,000
Good Boo : 20,000,000,000

Super Boo (initially) : 75,000,000,000
--- on Kami's temple : 140,000,000,000


Gotenks (post RoSaT) : 140,000,000,000

Super Boo (actuall power) 1,800,000,000,000

Gotenks SSJ : 1,400,000,000,000
--- SSJ3 : 11,200,000,000,000

Super Boo (FP, breaking dimensions) : 11,200,000,000,000

Son Gohan (post Z sword) : 2,200,000,000
--- SSJ : 22,000,000,000
--- SSJ2 : 44,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan : 16,800,000,000,000

Super Bootenks : 22,400,000,000,000

Boo-Gohan : 28,000,000,000,000

Vegetto : 6,000,000,000,000
--- SSJ : 60,000,000,000,000


Buff Boo : 14,000,000,000,000

Kid Boo : 60,000,000,000

Son Goku SSJ3 : 60,000,000,000

Vegeta SSJ2 : 15,000,000,000

Fat Boo : 50,000,000,000


---- I believe fat Boo regained his once expelled power once fighting kid Boo, as a way to explain him keeping up for so long and initially making Kid Boo angry. Tough to find a reason why he'd recover in universe, but maybe the fact Gray Boo absorbed him and turned in a different form of Boo stuck the power he had expelled inside him again. Vegeta also worried about the fact Boo could make up another evil Boo, which couldn't in fact happen if it were Good Boo as he had already eliminated the evil inside him. So maybe story wise, that Boo was already back to the one who fought Majin Vegeta and Goku and didn't have his power split.



END OF Z


Piccolo : 4,000,000,000

Goten : 500,000,000
--- SSJ : 5,000,000,000
Trunks : 510,000,000
--- SSJ : 5,100,000,000

Vegeta : 60,000,000,000
--- SSJ (hypothetical) : 600,000,000,000
--- SSJ2 (hypothetical) : 1,200,000,000,000

Son Goku : 60,000,000,000
--- SSJ (hypothetical) : 600,000,000,000
--- SSJ2 (hypothetical) : 1,200,000,000,000
--- SSJ3 (hypothetical) : 4,800,000,000,000

Oob (enraged) : 60,000,000,000

Mr. Boo : 50,000,000,000

 

[ahill1]

Damn, I don't know why part of it went crossed. I tried to look into the commands but couldn't revert it

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's under the vertical ellipsis next to the bold, italic & font-size things.

 

[ahill1]

Saw it now, but I would need to write everything again to undo it?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Nah, just highlight what is crossed-out & then click the cross thing again, that'll undo it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not sure about Base Post > SSJ Pre anymore. It's just a joke scene for the characters to act dumb, and even the chapter names lampshade it. Gotenks is full of shit as usual, and for comedic effect even Piccolo buys it for a second.

In fact I'm not sure about SSJ Gotenks at all anymore. When Piccolo is confident in Gotenks, he flat out says so and even gets excited (See SSJ3 Gotenks or even his fake hype for Base Gotenks in Rosat). His initial reaction to SSJ Gotenks pre is very skeptical... Granted most of the 2 days had already passed when Super Boo came, but Boo still arrived a few hours early since the boys weren't ready.

Granted this does make Piccolo stupid, but Toriyama made him very dumb in this saga lol. Maybe he always planned for the fight to happen in the Rosat so he could trap Boo if things went south?

Saw it now, but I would need to write everything again to undo it?

Just select the crossed text (Hold left click on mouse and drag over it) and click the S to uncross it.

 

[ahill1]

I like to keep base post >> SSJ pre so I can fit EoZ Goku right in the path of getting to Gohan and Gotenks' levels. I think he did a lot of catching up but was not quite there yet.

But the context of those situations was different. In one case, Piccolo had his hopes down and was expecting a miracle. So once seeing they really did improve that much, that got from him a reaction like that. On the other hand, with SSJ Gotenks, they had already high hopes in his power. There wasn't something there to break their expectations as they were expecting Gotenks to be more or less on a range that can defeat Fat Boo... It's not like they were hoping for a miracle and got one, Gotenks simply met their expectations, Piccolo's more precisely, so he didn't react so enthusiastically.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But the idea in EoZ was that Goku is the strongest. He has no competition, Gohan and Gotenks don’t even fight so he gets Oob for a new rival. Toriyama even said in an interview that Goku is “always number one”. Why wouldn’t he finish his own series on top?

 

[Goku9001]

Absolutely not. Base (Post) > SSJ (Pre) has to be a thing. It's literally reinforced by two characters. The only thing we are expected to believe is that they miscalculated Super Buu's power. Not that they miscalculated Gotenks' power. The gag revolving around Gotenks failing to beat Buu and being treated as a ragdoll doesn't require any of those statements to be false.

 

[ahill1]

I think Goku just doesn't see Gohan as someone who could be a challenge in a future battle. They are father and son, so it'd be weird to expect having a big battle with his son. He even said in the RoSaT he wished to train Gohan to be stronger than him. He has a different perspective with his son. Besides, Gohan is all on studying, his house looked like a library. He knows Gohan isn't into it anymore, so he wants someone else to have a big fight when such person is ready... And with that, Goku would grow stronger too. Trunks and Goten barely train so it'd be weird for Goku to crave for a battle asking Goten and Trunks to fuse as Gotenks. If it were Super Goku tho, I could totally see that happening. But Oob just so happens to be the perfect person.

And although those base Gotenks scenes were in a gag-ish tune, I don't dismiss power implications only due to it being gag unless it contradicts something, which those scenes don't. And Gotenks warrants many jokes as he's overall built as a funny character. Even his serious SSJ3 power vs Super Boo has many jokes attached to it, like he looking at his own image in a mirror, playing volleyball with Boo, dissing Piccolo. It'd be random to dismiss just that scene as that scene is in a conjunction with a lot of funny scenes.

@GreatSaiyaman123

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Absolutely not. Base (Post) > SSJ (Pre) has to be a thing. It's literally reinforced by two characters. The only thing we are expected to believe is that they miscalculated Super Buu's power. Not that they miscalculated Gotenks' power. The gag revolving around Gotenks failing to beat Buu and being treated as a ragdoll doesn't require any of those statements to be false.

We're expected to believe that they're stupid and should have noticed Gotenks didn't stand a chance. Even the chapter titles make fun of him. That's the point of the scene, it's done for laughs with no power scaling purpose. They're being lead by confidence and humor, not Ki sensing and logic.

I think Goku just doesn't see Gohan as someone who could be a challenge in a future battle. They are father and son, so it'd be weird to expect having a big battle with his son. He even said in the RoSaT he wished to train Gohan to be stronger than him. He has a different perspective with his son. Besides, Gohan is all on studying, his house looked like a library. He knows Gohan isn't into it anymore, so he wants someone else to have a big fight when such person is ready... And with that, Goku would grow stronger too. Trunks and Goten barely train so it'd be weird for Goku to crave for a battle asking Goten and Trunks to fuse as Gotenks. If it were Super Goku tho, I could totally see that happening. But Oob just so happens to be the perfect person.

And although those base Gotenks scenes were in a gag-ish tune, I don't dismiss power implications only due to it being gag unless it contradicts something, which those scenes don't. And Gotenks warrants many jokes as he's overall built as a funny character. Even his serious SSJ3 power vs Super Boo has many jokes attached to it, like he looking at his own image in a mirror, playing volleyball with Boo, dissing Piccolo. It'd be random to dismiss just that scene as that scene is in a conjunction with a lot of funny scenes.

@GreatSaiyaman123

So you think Gohan and Gotenks got weaker? Because you have Goten and Trunks even stronger in EoZ...

So what that Gotenks plays volleyball? There's no implications about anything in that scene. The issue here is the opposite - you're taking this scene as an actual power implication while admitting the others are joke scenes.

 

[Goku9001]

We're expected to believe that they're stupid and should have noticed Gotenks didn't stand a chance. Even the chapter titles make fun of him. That's the point of the scene, it's done for laughs with no power scaling purpose. They're being lead by confidence and humor, not Ki sensing and logic.



So you think Gohan and Gotenks got weaker? Because you have Goten and Trunks even stronger in EoZ...

So what that Gotenks plays volleyball? There's no implications about anything in that scene. The issue here is the opposite - you're taking this scene as an actual power implication while admitting the others are joke scenes.

The gag scene was executed completely differently compared to when Base Gotenks first wanted to battle Fat Buu. Kuririn and Yamucha merely claim Base Gotenks' was confident and fell for his bluff while Piccolo completely cast him to the side. The humor in it is that Base Gotenks was warned by Piccolo and then was made out to be a fool by not listening to him. It was a classic, "I told you so" moment.

The humor in Gotenks vs. Super Buu was similar in the sense that Gotenks was made out to be a fool despite wanting to play a hero and make the fight a pure spectacle. However, Gotenks' confidence was blatantly predicated on his ability to perceive Super Buu's exposed power at the time which was reinforced by Piccolo. The humor here is that Gotenks wasn't allowed to dramatize the battle to look good, not that there was no basis for his confidence to begin with. After all, Gotenks had Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 in his back pocket so the implication isn't merely that Gotenks was a bumbling fool.

 

[ahill1]

So you think Gohan and Gotenks got weaker? Because you have Goten and Trunks even stronger in EoZ...

So what that Gotenks plays volleyball? There's no implications about anything in that scene. The issue here is the opposite - you're taking this scene as an actual power implication while admitting the others are joke scenes.

I think the Daizenshuu has an entry saying Goten and Trunks didn't change their powers that much since they weren't as commited... So I give them a slight boost compared to their Boo saga selves. It's the only saying on their power so I use that.

No, I'm saying the Gotenks instances are filled with joking scenes. If the base Gotenks one was a separated joking scene, then it'd hold more merit, but it isn't. It isn't only the base situations which is filled with they trying to make it a fun and a call back to the original DB, so I wouldn't ignore the base scene solely based on the fact it's funny. And like I said, the gag-ish tune doesn't contradict anything besides numbers feeling more bloated, which is a recurring theme in DB, so I don't know why you're so resistent with those scenes in specific. I generally don't like bloating them numbers either, but I don't do that for no reason. This was a very mederated list and I only bloat it up when there're reasons for such. And like Goku9001 said, kid Trunks also thinks they can fight on par with Boo in their regular state, so that also backs up Piccolo's excitement.

The most compelling argument I could see for that scene not counting would Piccolo facepalming himself instead of saying how Boo surpassed what he thought of him, but that may be because the situation is just hopeless for him and he's like "oh the light at the end of the tunnel was just a freight train".

 

[ahill1]

Reading the scene again tho, the facepalm from Piccolo gets my attention. It seems more like a reaction of "how could have I believed they would stand a chance"... If it were in regards to him misreading Boo, I think the reaction would be more of confusion and "damn he's more powerful than I thought".

So there's a possibility that when Trunks was thinking about equaling Boo, he may be referencing the standard level as in standard SSJ level. And when Piccolo saw their base powers he may have been counting on them transforming later, saw they didn't and facepalmed... But then saw they doing it and got all reveled up again. So yeah, I think I can see the point for SSJ Gotenks being the one on initial Super Boo's level. Not because it's a gag scene, but due to Piccolo's reactions overall. Gotenks when attacking in base says it should have at least hurt him a little, so that may indicate he didn't think base would be the ken equaling Boo. Also, if they thought in using SSJ3, and base already equaled Boo, that would be a very big jump in power.

And with SSJ Gotenks, we see more genuine reactions from Piccolo, like from someone who sees that defeating Boo is harder than he thought as Boo is unpredictable. He seems more in on the battle as a whole. So yeah, I think SSJ being the state meant to equal initial Super Boo may flow well with their reactions too.

It'd be something like this then:


SSJ3 Goku : 60,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks (pre) : 70,000,000,000
Super Boo (initially, sensible chi) : 140,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks (post) : 140,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks : 1,120,000,000,000

I think that angle is possible too.

 

[Goku9001]

Not really. Trunks and Piccolo clearly meant base form. That's the form Trunks alluded to hence why Trunks believes starting out in that form and escalating it via transforming would shock Piccolo. It's also obvious given how his Base form is the one he decided to start the fight with. You guys are ignoring implications because they are too bloated and that's a consistent trend that I've noticed now that Feats is gone.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah there’s no SSJ in the scene. Toriyama just hypes you for Base Gotenks vs Super Boo and pulls the rug over your feet.

Point is, you guys are overthinking the joke. You just laugh and keep reading. Though this argument could be used to dismiss any power scaling so idk…

 

[Goku9001]

Yeah there’s SSJ in the scene. Toriyama just hypes you for Base Gotenks vs Super Boo and pulls the rug over your feet.

Point is, you guys are overthinking the joke. You just laugh and keep reading. Though this argument could be used to dismiss any power scaling so idk…

Trunks clearly intended to have an even fight with Buu before surprising Piccolo that they could transform for dramatic effect. Being able to transform after fusion was meant for dramatic effect.

I think you are the one overthinking things. We're just taking things directly as stated.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah I think base has a stronger case for being the form which equaled Boo.

But SSJ does have too, instead of base, when reading the scene again (breakdown below):

I don't mind making numbers bloated. It's ok to me, really. I just drew attention to Piccolo facepalming himself. That alludes more to someone feeling the situation was awkward or that Gotenks screwed up things... Not that he got a wrong reading on Boo all alone. When they battle in SSJ, his reaction matches up more to the state he hopes "might be able to get it done Vs Super Boo".

Translation from VIZ:


Kid Trunks : I guess its weakness is time. We could only do it for 5 minutes
Goten: So what? We can finish that creep in five minutes easy!

They're saying 5 minutes is enough to finish Boo. I think that if the base form is already what they expected to fight Super Boo evenly, wouldn't reiterating they they can finish him in 5 minutes easy, with Trunks saying it's its weakness be a total non-factor? Going from base which = Boo to SSJ3 is a hell of a jump. They wouldn't even use SSJ.

Trunks : I think we've improved enough to be even with Boo with regular fusion

Surely that could be in reference to SSJ Gotenks as regular fusion? He had fused as both Gotenks base and Super Gotenks before the RoSaT. Maybe he considers both of them as regular fusions... Since SSJ3 is clearly singled out as its own separate thing. Who knows what Trunks is thinking as regular fusion.

Once base Gotenks attacks Boo, he thinks that should have leveled up Boo. A little different from thinking that state should be getting the best of Boo.

Super Boo says base Gotenks is weak. I think that would be a strong word to use if base Gotenks surpassed his previous SSJ power by a lot, which was already > SSJ3 Goku, don't you think? Goku said Boo would fight very strong guys, in fact stronger than his SSJ3... Then he fights a dude who is levels and levels above SSJ3 Goku... And considers him a joke? Isn't that a little weird? Ok that Boo is all powered up, but by the way Boo acts, it seems Gotenks didn't meet the expectations and estimations at all.

And then they turn SSJ and when Piccolo sees Boo is getting squeezed by Gotenks ring chi attack, he gets all excited... Matching up that such is the form he expected "may succeed". Then Gotenks dodges Boo's clap, but Boo kicks him upwards, then zaps through him and kicks him to the ground (remembers me of 2nd form Freeza FP vs weighted Piccolo), but then Gotenks reacts and both clash their heads against each other... Hurting each other. So Boo wasn't that much above Gotenks is raw power. Piccolo is tense, saying "can he do it?"... More like a genuine reaction matching up his statement that Gotenks has powered up to a point he "may succeed" Vs Boo.

And in fact, like Trunks predicted, his SSJ fight Vs Super Boo drew on too long, but the difference is Super Boo was stronger than he thought since they misread his strength a little, since Boo is hard to grasp... So Gotenks had to resort to techniques rather than fighting him head on.

So I somewhat I get the feeling that by the way Gotenks appears, the way Piccolo facepalms himself (like, "I was a fool to believe that") rather than emphasizing Boo's power, which he does when he sees Boo getting the best of SSJ Gotenks... Gives me the impressions that it COULD be the case the SSJ form was the one intended to match their estimations of initial Super Boo... And the base form was just one Gotenks would initially utilize to showcase some funny attacks and revel up Boo a little, in his own words.

Before it all, when they ended up training, Goten also says "wow, I never knew there was a form beyond Super Saiyan"... Which can possibly indicate that to them, SSJ is also a standard fusion... Since they're singling out SSJ3 so much. So base or SSJ may be just a standard, regular fusion to them, and SSJ3 be separated as something exceptional.


I'm not saying this is the case, posts ago I was saying base was likely was above SSJ pre... But reading the scene again, I can totally have the feeling the SSJ form was intended to be the one on initial Super Boo's level.

It's also possible that when Piccolo saw them fusing as base, he got his hopes up so he did expect a following up transformation in SSJ. But then they didn't and attacked in base and Piccolo was like "we're doomed" (since him rushing in base and not transforming indicates he didn't develop the ability to transform in SSJ), hence they are doomed, they hadn't the ability Piccolo thought would place them on par with Boo. But then they do it and Piccolo is like "so they can turn SSJ after fusion!!" (like, he thought they couldn't because they didn't attempt to do so and rushed to attack in base... But now he sees they can really do so). Ppl take Piccolo saying "so they can turn into a SSJ" as meaning he thought they couldn't, but I also find the above interpretation totally possible --- Piccolo thought they could --- saw them attacking in base so thought they really couldn't and they were doomed --- saw them doing it so he was back to "so they really can" -- .


Damn this was long lol. What's with me writing long ass posts again.

 

[Goku9001]

Yeah, that is too long. All I know is that Trunks and Goten agreed to start the fight in "regular fusion", begins the battle as Base Gotenks, and is shocked that he is outclassed. That's enough for me to conclude that "regular fusion" is Base Gotenks.

 

[ahill1]

Well, I stand by my position that both premises look possible.