The Last One

[SSJ2]

Well Gohan is stated to be the strongest even pre-Super Saiyan.

Where?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Where?

In Toriyama's notes in the script. I'm telling you man, the overall evidence is overwhelming.

Even Youtubers like Seth the Programmer are up on Piccolo's weakness in the Buu Saga. It's time to get with the times, brother.

 

[SSJ2]

Ok but where is that in the manga?

Why would I give a fuck about the youtubers or the general consensus? That's probably the dumbest mentality you've ever preached before.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Ok but where is that in the manga?

The manga follows the movie. The burden of proof is on you to show where Toyotarou changed the movie. Not for us to make up whatever we want.

Why would I give a fuck about the youtubers or the general consensus?

Because the knowledge of Youtubers is far lower than someone like yourself. And even they are getting it now.

That's probably the dumbest mentality you've ever preached before.

I'm saying you are far better than them. For them to be ahead of you here is absurd.

 

[SSJ2]

The manga follows the movie. The burden of proof is on you to show where Toyotarou changed the movie. Not for us to make up whatever we want.

You do realize the manga is also credited to Toriyama, right?

Because the knowledge of Youtubers is far lower than someone like yourself. And even they are getting it now. I'm saying you are far better than them. For them to be ahead of you here is absurd.

So having knowledge means that you can only accept a single interpretation of something? That is perhaps the most flawed way you can ever approach any situation. This isn't some mathematical problem where there is a sole right or wrong answer. And for the record I couldn't care less if you think they are "ahead" of me. That isn't nearly enough to make me reconsider my position. My convictions are far stronger than that.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You do realize the manga is also credited to Toriyama, right?

Of course, he even makes corrections as well. But this doesn't somehow mean that the movie is just a throwaway if the manga doesn't address it. You'd still have to show evidence that the movie logic is not in use. The assumed position is that the movie is canon to the manga except for the parts Toyo changes.

So having knowledge means that you can only accept a single interpretation of something?

Of course not. More knowledge means you are more likely to be correct. This isn't a multi-interpretational issue from the evidence we do have. Someone of your stature should be on the right side of things here, not the wrong side. You are allowing your personal bias and "what could have been" or "what should have been" to override your reasonableness.

This isn't some mathematical problem where there is a sole right or wrong answer.

This is a right/wrong situation without a doubt. There's 10x the evidence on one side, the other is minimal implications pointing towards something not upheld in later sagas.

And for the record I couldn't care less if you think they are "ahead" of me. That isn't nearly enough to make me reconsider my position. My convictions are far stronger than that.

I'm just trying to give you a compliment. You are better than those guys, you shouldn't be struggling with an issue even the more basic people get. You are better than that. That's all I'm saying. This issue is a nothing burger, it's hardly debatable at this point.

 

[SSJ2]

Of course, he even makes corrections as well. But this doesn't somehow mean that the movie is just a throwaway if the manga doesn't address it. You'd still have to show evidence that the movie logic is not in use. The assumed position is that the movie is canon to the manga except for the parts Toyo changes.

So how do you determine what is considered a correction and what isn't? Because by this logic the Battle of Gods script was written entirely by Toriyama with no help of Toyotaro. This should be treated as the gospel for the first arc of Super. Goku is a 6, Beerus is 10, Whis 15. The omission of Beerus using 70% in the manga should be discarded and the movie should be treated as canon.

Of course not. More knowledge means you are more likely to be correct. This isn't a multi-interpretational issue from the evidence we do have. Someone of your stature should be on the right side of things here, not the wrong side. You are allowing your personal bias and "what could have been" or "what should have been" to override your reasonableness.

This is ironic considering you have blatantly changed Toriyama's given numbers within the manga to suit your own bias. You don't like Ki blasts being >2x so that means Goku and Piccolo were above 600 against Raditz. That is pure bias that is not found anywhere in the manga. At least my interpretation has backing from prior evidence in the manga.

I'm just trying to give you a compliment. You are better than those guys, you shouldn't be struggling with an issue even the more basic people get. You are better than that. That's all I'm saying. This issue is a nothing burger, it's hardly debatable at this point.

Yeah, this backhanded compliment isn't convincing me whatsoever

 

[Power Level Guy]

That is pure bias that is not found anywhere in the manga.

How strong is Vegeta’s ki blast against Reecome?

 

[SSJ2]

How strong is Vegeta’s ki blast against Reecome?

What's your point here?

 

[Power Level Guy]

What's your point here?

It's a nuanced, multi-step point. I have to bring you along one step at a time to show you why I do what I do. It's not bias or anything like that, it's preference. I choose character statements, feats, and in universe logic over numbers that were thrown together in two seconds. These two things are at odds, literally all of the time. Like ALL of the time. There are issues with every single power level I bet. It's all very problematic. The author is winging the series, and he's making things up in the moment. Surely, there would be a better set of numbers to better equate the series if he could go back and start from scratch, wouldn't you agree?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t think he’d even bother with new numbers even if he could. It’s not that deep.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don’t think he’d even bother with new numbers even if he could. It’s not that deep.

Of course not, but if he did and did them with serious intent, they'd be remarkably different no doubt.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Power Level Guy @ahill1 @SSJ2 Gave it another revamp. Part 1 ignores scouters now and managed to fit Namek SSJ Goku at 375mil. Really liking how Namek turned out.

 

[SSJ2]

Why are Murasaki and Silver that weak?

 

[SIAD]

I like.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Namek SSJ Goku at 375mil.

I really love that number for Super Saiyan Goku. I've been using it for many years now. It's a great placement that provides sufficient room to make all implications satisfactorily fit.

 

[ahill1]

@Power Level Guy @ahill1 @SSJ2 Gave it another revamp. Part 1 ignores scouters now and managed to fit Namek SSJ Goku at 375mil. Really liking how Namek turned out.

I think they're all very good numbers. Those times I'm terrible at offering feedback to lists that have what I consider the basic things right haha. I think I'm way more fitting to justify why I've a number like that or a character that strong rather than raise questions when reading in someone's list whom I know, like you, SSJ2 and P, who are all just as knowledgeable as I am on the original manga. I think it'd be better if you had a conflicting side about some placement or a specific number and then I think I could give what I think makes most sense to me.

 

[SSJ2]

Only other thing I noticed after a quick scan in part 1 is that exhausted Goku/Piccolo seem too high in the 23rd. They could hardly move at that point. I think you should raise their max powers to better reflect this.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Only other thing I noticed after a quick scan in part 1 is that exhausted Goku/Piccolo seem too high in the 23rd. They could hardly move at that point. I think you should raise their max powers to better reflect this.

What percentage do you peg them at?

 

[SSJ2]

What percentage do you peg them at?

Maybe a quarter tops.

Chapter: 191, P1.2
Context: following Piccolo's big attack, which Goku survives
Goku: “You got no chance of winnin’ now! You probably just used up all the ki you had remaining.”

Even before this, Goku already noted that Piccolo was fatigued, and Piccolo was still leagues above even Kami.

Chapter: 189, P2.5, P3.1-3
Context: discussing what will happen if Goku loses to Piccolo
Kuririn: “If it comes down to that, we can all gang up and manage something!”
Piccolo: “Kukkukku…You think that you’ll be able to manage something by ganging up on me? Don’t make me laugh! Even if there were a hundred of the likes of you, you’d still be no match. God included. I’m already in a completely different dimension than you!”
Kame-sennin: “Unfortunately, he’s right...Goku is the only one able to take in those stupendously fast movements of his…”

They really should be multiple times stronger than Kami taking this into account.