Which Gohan was Vegeta talking about?

[Captain Cadaver]

The importance of the statement, however, is that Vegeta was able to tell that much from a mere burst of Goku's SS2 power, in other words, not even it's full extent. That much would imply quite the significant gap.

 

[Dioxide]

His burst arguiably already was his full power.

 

[Six Trails]

His burst arguiably already was his full power.

It wasn't. Vegeta didn't note that Goku was stronger than Gohan until Goku transformed right in front of Vegeta before their fight.

SS2 Goku (FP) > SS2 Kid Gohan > SS2 Goku (Burst) > SS2 pre-Majin Vegeta

 

[Dioxide]

Which doesn't mean it wasn't Goku's full power.

 

[Six Trails]

Yes it does. If Goku was at full power, Vegeta would've noted Goku was stronger than Gohan, but he didn't. Not until Goku transforms right before their fight.

 

[Dioxide]

Vegeta doesn't have to note things when you want him too. He isn't forced to say things to your own discretion.

 

[Pyro]

The line would lose its significance if Goku had already achieved that milestone and we were completely unaware. Besides, Goku didn't fully transform against Yakon (hence the "burst" description), given he didn't achieve the sparks until his battle with Vegeta.

 

[Dioxide]

"Burst" is simply a term that fans use, it not stated to be a burst" in the manga. Goku showing his SSJ2 power for a brief moment doesn't mean it couldn't be full power, what's stopping it from being full power anyway? Being full power in SSJ, it would be different for SSJ2.

 

[Whipedkillsmiled]

Tbh, I don't see why Vegeta would be proud of himself for being stronger than SSJ2 Gohan but still weaker than SSJ2 enrage Gohan. In so much that he actually states it? That oh we've both become stronger than this Gohan...but we're still weaker than this one.. that was probably not his message.
I think Vegeta was trying to say they have reached a level surpassing what Gohan displayed in the cell games as a whole. When he says who knows what will happen when he gets mad we have to take into account that because of his anger he's token on tough opponents some of which vegeta himself wouldn't dare challenge so he doesn't know what to expect anymore.
Fought Cell, Killed Cell. Well it's not like those both took place at different time and dates when he fought Cell he killed him.
Goku telling Gohan to get mad like against cell is to bring up his power it's mainly to motivate him. It's not like SSJ2 Gohan enraged is at the point where he can take on SSJ3 Goku because he also said if he gets mad no one can defeat him.
All in all IMO SSJ2 ragehan cell games isn't at a whole 1.5x lead than his normal self or anything he's stronger but I find it comfortable to believe Vegeta and Goku were much stronger.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

After Vegeta withnessed Goku has SSJ2. He's assumed Goku will be stronger than Gohan back then as full power.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku against Yakon is stated to be above Teen Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Goku against Vegeta was stated to be above Kid Gohan. There's clearly a difference. So much of a difference that Gohan looks at the power shown against Yakon as nothing more than an "Incredible Chi", and later realizes that Goku and Vegeta are fighting in Super Saiyan 2 because of the intense damage energy they're accumulating.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

When was it stated that Burst Goku is stronger than Teen Gohan?

 

[Kyo]

His burst arguiably already was his full power.

"Burst" is simply a term that fans use, it not stated to be a burst" in the manga. Goku showing his SSJ2 power for a brief moment doesn't mean it couldn't be full power, what's stopping it from being full power anyway? Being full power in SSJ, it would be different for SSJ2.

He didn't complete the transformation. There were no sparks and Gohan didn't even realize that it was SSJ2 power (only Vegeta noticed that Goku broke the wall). He was, by definition, not at full power. Moreover, Vegeta asked Goku to show him the fruits of his training in the afterlife, as though he hadn't seen it yet, and then went on to say, "Just as I'd expect, your power..." as though he hadn't confirmed it until then.

As far as the gap between Vegeta and Goku goes, I do agree that it needn't be very large. <hr />

that Gohan looks at the power shown against Yakon as nothing more than an "Incredible Chi", and later realizes that Goku and Vegeta are fighting in Super Saiyan 2 because of the intense damage energy they're accumulating.

^I echo all this

 

[Dioxide]

His burst arguiably already was his full power.

"Burst" is simply a term that fans use, it not stated to be a burst" in the manga. Goku showing his SSJ2 power for a brief moment doesn't mean it couldn't be full power, what's stopping it from being full power anyway? Being full power in SSJ, it would be different for SSJ2.

He didn't complete the transformation. There were no sparks and Gohan didn't even realize that it was SSJ2 power (only Vegeta noticed that Goku broke the wall). He was, by definition, not at full power. Moreover, Vegeta asked Goku to show him the fruits of his training in the afterlife, as though he hadn't seen it yet, and then went on to say, "Just as I'd expect, your power..." as though he hadn't confirmed it until then.

As far as the gap between Vegeta and Goku goes, I do agree that it needn't be very large. <hr />

that Gohan looks at the power shown against Yakon as nothing more than an "Incredible Chi", and later realizes that Goku and Vegeta are fighting in Super Saiyan 2 because of the intense damage energy they're accumulating.

^I echo all this

I could easily say that since the transformation was so quick that sparks didn't need to be present, it would be no different then how you think sparks would work. Vegeta cannot know that was Goku's full power by just sensing his Ki alone as he would need confirmation from Goku that it was indeed his full power, that does not necessarily mean Goku didn't display it because only Goku knows his full power, not Vegeta. His follow up line is confirmatiom to him that what Goku displayed before was his full power and that it was greater than Gohan's.

 

[Kyo]

That's just an assumption though. I know two things for certain: One, there are no sparks when the transformation is incomplete (Kid Gohan shows this too). The only "exceptions" (I use the term loosely because they aren't really related) are a few instances in which a big power up in SSJ1 is complemented by sparks, which is akin to Nappa showing off sparks when powering up and is unrelated to transforming anyhow. Two, Goku shows no sparks when he does his "burst," but they immediately show up when he transforms against Vegeta (I feel like quickness isn't an issue). From those things, I conclude that Goku's transformation was incomplete. At best, you could say that it's an art error, kind of like how a character's aura sometimes isn't shown when a panel zooms in real close.

Like I said, Gohan didn't even register the fact that Goku was using a higher form, and there's no reason that only someone more perceptive like Vegeta could pick it up if Goku truly did transform. Like EV said, the two powers are treated very differently. Moreover, Vegeta's "Just I'd expect, your power is..." suggests more strongly that he confirmed a prediction/expectation, not something he'd already seen.

 

[Dioxide]

That's just an assumption though. I know two things for certain: One, there are no sparks when the transformation is incomplete (Kid Gohan shows this too). The only "exceptions" (I use the term loosely because they aren't really related) are a few instances in which a big power up in SSJ1 is complemented by sparks, which is akin to Nappa showing off sparks when powering up and is unrelated to transforming anyhow. Two, Goku shows no sparks when he does his "burst," but they immediately show up when he transforms against Vegeta (I feel like quickness isn't an issue). From those things, I conclude that Goku's transformation was incomplete. At best, you could say that it's an art error, kind of like how a character's aura sometimes isn't shown when a panel zooms in real close.

Like I said, Gohan didn't even register the fact that Goku was using a higher form, and there's no reason that only someone more perceptive like Vegeta could pick it up if Goku truly did transform. Like EV said, the two powers are treated very differently. Moreover, Vegeta's "Just I'd expect, your power is..." suggests more strongly that he confirmed a prediction/expectation, not something he'd already seen.

Those are all interpretations. I personally do not see it the way you do, because even your own "exceptions" are based off of subjectivity. The fact that the power up was so quick could very well be why there were no sparks present, which would be no more wrong then how you've interpreted it. As for evidence that says otherwise, when Gohan unleashed his full power with his Kamehameha against Cell there were no sparks, likely because it was only for an instant.

Is there a statement where Gohan says he didn't know it was SSJ2? He should very well know.

 

[Kyo]

The one-armed KHH at the very end? He actually didn't have sparks the entire time, though he had them right before he started powering up his KHH. Same thing happened to Cell. I can't think of too many other examples of this happening...same thing happens when Gohan fires his first, two-handed KHH against pre-zenkai Cell. There's an instance kind of like this when Goku fires off a KHH against Fat Boo, sans the power-up part. Basically when they get "engulfed" in some kind of chi/aura like that, the sparks aren't visible anymore, so I don't believe that what you're suggesting about the quickness is the case, unless you meant something else. I'll just point back to Goku transforming against Vegeta; in the panel in which the process is just completed, we see the sparks. But you're right, this is subjective to an extent and more time invested in this discussion won't go anywhere.

There's no direct statement, but Gohan refers to Goku's chi as simply "great" or "incredible" the first time (going by fanslation, sorry). Later on he's just as baffled as Kaioshin (this is the most important part) when the Boo meter gets filled up, and then utters an "I-I know!..." as though the possibility of SSJ2 Goku had only just occurred to him.

Also, I still stand by what I said about Vegeta's "Just as I'd expect" wording.

 

[Dioxide]

The one-armed KHH at the very end? He actually didn't have sparks the entire time, though he had them right before he started powering up his KHH. Same thing happened to Cell. I can't think of too many other examples of this happening...same thing happens when Gohan fires his first, two-handed KHH against pre-zenkai Cell. There's an instance kind of like this when Goku fires off a KHH against Fat Boo, sans the power-up part. Basically when they get "engulfed" in some kind of chi/aura like that, the sparks aren't visible anymore, so I don't believe that what you're suggesting about the quickness is the case, unless you meant something else. I'll just point back to Goku transforming against Vegeta; in the panel in which the process is just completed, we see the sparks. But you're right, this is subjective to an extent and more time invested in this discussion won't go anywhere.

There's no direct statement, but Gohan refers to Goku's chi as simply "great" or "incredible" the first time (going by fanslation, sorry). Later on he's just as baffled as Kaioshin (this is the most important part) when the Boo meter gets filled up, and then utters an "I-I know!..." as though the possibility of SSJ2 Goku had only just occurred to him.

Also, I still stand by what I said about Vegeta's "Just as I'd expect" wording.

What it seems you don't realize is that we are arguing completely in the manner of subjectivity. We are going off by what we see and how we interpret them, but not everyone will see it that swmr way as you do. There are no statements regarding how and when sparks are supposed to appear, it's completely up the reader. So either of us could be wrong or right.

In that quote Gohan is merely putting emphasis on the amount of damage energy that was accumulated.

If Goku's SSJ2 against Yakon was expected to be his full power and to surpass Gohan then yes, Vegeta's wording makes sense in that regard.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gohan just says "Dad, I felt that Chi!! That was awesome!!" after he blows Yakon up.

The way I see it, Gohan thought it was a quick power-up rather than an actual transformation.

The emphasis was made through realizing that they must be fighting beyond Super Saiyan for the energy to fill up so fast--implying he was unaware they were capable of this beforehand. Kaioshin wonders why it filled up so fast, with Gohan saying if two powers of that level clash, it'd undoubtedly bring greater damage.

I don't see how Vegeta's wording makes sense if he was already shown to be more powerful than Kid Gohan to begin with. Vegeta expected Goku to surpass Kid Gohan and confirms it when he reaches full-power. There'd be nothing to expect if he already saw it. There'd also be no point to the revelation.

 

[Dioxide]

[No message]