Is Goku a prick now?

[Warmmedown]

I was reading that Goku is letting Freeza rebuild his empire? Wtf? I'm changing who I root for in those Superman vs Goku fights now.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yep. He kept underestimating Zeno and thinking he could talk him into doing a tournament and then talk him out of erasing universes. He also wants to punch everyone new he meets.

 

[SSJ2]

Don't disgrace the character by calling him Goku. This is not Goku.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, Namek Goku flat out refused to kill Freeza twice. Here he had a deal with Freeza, and he was never Superman to go around policing the bad guys he allowed to live. Goku's dumbness is mostly him acting retarded for laughs like when he didn't know what kissing or meditation(?) was.

 

[Theallpowerfulpuipui]

I think what gets lost to a western audience is that Goku has nothing against letting things return to their natural order.

 

[Warmmedown]

I think what gets lost to a western audience is that Goku has nothing against letting things return to their natural order.

If this was true, why did he have any interest in using the dragon balls to revive Bora or people killed by King Piccolo, the androids, Vegeta or Buu? People he'd never met. Or angry when Android 20 blew up part of the city?

 

[Warmmedown]

To be fair, Namek Goku flat out refused to kill Freeza twice. Here he had a deal with Freeza, and he was never Superman to go around policing the bad guys he allowed to live. Goku's dumbness is mostly him acting retarded for laughs like when he didn't know what kissing or meditation(?) was.

I never thought about that that much, but you have a point.
But with Namek you can say that Goku just believed Freeza might turn over a new leaf. Whereas in Super he knows for sure what Freeza is up to.

 

[Theallpowerfulpuipui]

If this was true, why did he have any interest in using the dragon balls to revive Bora or people killed by King Piccolo, the androids, Vegeta or Buu? People he'd never met. Or angry when Android 20 blew up part of the city?

They disturbed the natural order. If Frieza was killing tens of billions of beings that he never meant overall, Goku could care less.

 

[Warmmedown]

How is an Android/Cell/Piccolo/Vegeta killing people not part of the "natural order", but Freeza killing people is?

 

[Theallpowerfulpuipui]

How is an Android/Cell/Piccolo/Vegeta killing people not part of the "natural order", but Freeza killing people is?

It's like the war happening in Tigray right now. We can care less because we don't know about it, and Ethiopia historically maintained their stability by having a form of cultural hegemony us westerners don't understand.

 

[Warmmedown]

I don't think Goku is thinking that deep (I also don't think that some non-Western "cultural hegemony" is at all the reason people don't pay Tigray much attention. It's the not knowing about it part - the lack of personal connection, lack of media coverage and lack of understanding of the situation). It makes way more sense for him to view killing as equally wrong regardless of where it is or what the culture in that place is. "Not knowing about it" doesn't make sense here for Goku either, since he knows what Freeza is up to.

I'm not sure how being ignorant of something makes it more part of the "natural order" than something we're not ignorant of. If something happens and I'm unaware of it, it doesn't make the something less natural.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think this comparison to a random war somewhere else makes sense. Bora and Upa were people Goku knew personally. Bora just died because he was at the same place as Goku. Goku doesn’t even have any idea of what Freeza has been up to.

I don’t remember if Goku ever held Freeza accountable for being a genocidal maniac in the original series, although he probably did. I just remember him going “You killed Kuririn” and “Saiyans deserved to die anyway”. The english dub had him to a very cringeworthy speech about justice like he was Superman or something.

 

[Warmmedown]

I thought Goku in Super does know what Freeza is doing though?

 

[Animelover5487]

Yeah Goku is not Superman, or really that heroic of a person in general. His reasons for stopping people is when they directly endanger the lives of him and the friends and family around him and even then he usually spares them if they are a strong opponent who can keep giving him a good fight such as Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza and Moro. Piccolo and Vegeta just happened to turn over a new leaf but that wasn't Goku's intention at first.

 

[Warmmedown]

“Saiyans deserved to die anyway”.

Do you know when about he said this? I'm trying to find the chapter.

Yeah Goku is not Superman, or really that heroic of a person in general. His reasons for stopping people is when they directly endanger the lives of him and the friends and family around him and even then he usually spares them if they are a strong opponent who can keep giving him a good fight such as Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza and Moro. Piccolo and Vegeta just happened to turn over a new leaf but that wasn't Goku's intention at first.

Didn't Goku spare people much weaker than him though? Like Jeice or random people in the RRA? I remember him telling random henchmen to stop so he doesn't have to beat them up, or something similar.

He gets mad about random earthlings being killed, who aren't his friends or family. He doesn't go out of his way to go and save people who are far away, but he'll save people who are nearby or try to stop a villain from attacking people. It's not congruent with his past to let Freeza, who's right next to him (same as when A20 killed people in the city or Vegeta killed at the tournament), go off and kill a bunch of people. If Freeza was on another planet doing it it would make sense that he lets it go, but not when Freeza is right there and can easily be stopped.

 

[Kyo]

Do you know when about he said this? I'm trying to find the chapter.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

While it's true that Goku has spared dangerous opponents in the original manga, DBS still lacks nuance in the way they handle it imo. Vegeta was the first person to truly demonstrate just how far Goku still had to go in terms of fighting.

Chapter: 241 (DBZ 47), P10.1
Goku: “I trained under Lord Kaio… I thought I’d hit the peak of power… But Vegeta was…so far above me…! I was shocked… Scared…”

And Goku felt that destroying Freeza's pride and letting him live was a far superior victory to outright killing him.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

While it may be technically in character for Goku to spare his opponents, what actually makes it interesting is why he spares them. The writing quality for the characters in DBS simply boils characters down to their most simplistic traits, while ignoring the thoughts they actually have that lead them to the conclusions that they make. This is generally why people object to the way Goku is written in DBS.

 

[Warmmedown]

Hmmm, thanks. Wanted to look at the context.

Hmmm, he does get mad and say Freeza killed countless innocent people. I'm guessing that's a bunch of Namekians he never met.

 

[Kyo]

Hmmm, thanks. Wanted to look at the context.

Hmmm, he does get mad and say Freeza killed countless innocent people. I'm guessing that's a bunch of Namekians he never met.

In that scene he's talking about "innocent, good people" in general, but primarily Krillin. But yeah, the Namekians would fall under that category as well.

Spoiler

He does evidently care about all the people he hasn't met in general too.

Spoiler

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah Goku is a simple guy. If he sees someone doing bad, he stops then. But he doesn’t go out of his way to find evil people.

On the recent Freeza stuff, they made a deal. If Freeza helps them, he’ll revive him. The Japanese are very loyal on their words, and Goku being the nice guy he is will definitely be loyal on his.