Goku's SSJ power (S17 arc)

[SSJ2]

SSJ Vegetto, I'm calling you out here. We will continue our debate on the subject here as soon as I've taken care of some things on the forum.

But for anyone else, how strong do you have SSJ Goku @ Super 17?

 

[Six Trails]

initial Super #17 >>> SS2 Goku >~ SS2 Vegeta > SS Goku >~ SS Vegeta >/>> Super Uub

 

[SSJ2]

That seems different from what you were arguing the other day. :huh:

 

[Six Trails]

?

I never denied Goku being stronger than Vegeta, or Vegeta being above Uub.. I only argued against SS Goku > SS2 Vegeta..

 

[Pyro]

The entire fight with Super #17, from the start with the Zet Senshi to the end with #18, was sloppy at best. Goten and Trunks lasted longer than Gohan, Vegeta may or may not have even transformed to Super Saiyan 2 until the end, and Goku only went Super Saiyan against someone he watched tool everyone else. All of it could be due to Toei not giving a shit about consistency and only about entertainment value.

Goku only seems to use Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan 4 once he gains it, never really Super Saiyan 3 and even rarer is Super Saiyan 2, which is a shame. Hell, I don't think Goku went Super Saiyan once after the Super #17 battle. Toei gradually phased out every other form for him.

Anyway, to get to the main point, because the fight is so odd and factoring in Toei's tendency to bolster Goku's strength to whatever they feel is cool regardless of logic, it's very possible he was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. At the same time, it's possible because the machine mutant was toying with everyone that it's all up in the air.

 

[SSJ2]

That's definitely putting it well, Pyrus. Awesome post.

@Vegetto: Don't get me wrong, I wasn;t trying to act like a jackass yesterday by thinking that my opinion was the only correct one, I simply see it as the more correct option. I will make a post on it later.

 

[Six Trails]

I still stand behind Vegeta not being far off from Goku. Vegeta expected to challenge Goku and be victorious at the end of the arc after the Tenkaichi. That's enough for me.

 

[SSJ2]

What happened in that Budokai? Was it off camera?

 

[Six Trails]

It was after it ended. Everyone was (presumably) walking home, and Vegeta stops Goku and challenges him. Earlier before that, when everyone else was still at the tournament, Vegeta wasn't. That's when he claims he's going to challenge Goku. The fight doesn't actually get to happen though, since Goku calls it off right before it begins since he was hungry.

That's how I remember it at least. I can check on my DVD later.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

What happened in that Budokai? Was it off camera?

Goku lost to Mugley, Papayaman lost to Satan.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm vaguely remembering that bullshit.

 

[Pyro]

Commoner Answer: "That scene was a setup for the gag with Goku being hungry. It doesn't mean Vegeta is close to Goku at all. Gotenks or something."

 

[SIAD]

I: Super 17 (initial)> SSJ Goku (S17) >>>> Vegeta SSJ2 (S17) >> SBV2 = Majuub (S17)> Goku Base (S17)> Majuub (Baby)> Vegeta SSJ (S17) = SBV1> > Super Vegetto (Boo)> = Baby Vegeta (Base) >>>> Vegeta Base (S17).

 

[Papasmurf]

I'd probably say SSJ Goku is stronger than everybody else, illogical as that fight truly was. Myu seems to have no concept of Super Saiyan 4, or possibly even Super Saiyan 2 and 3, and didn't seem to suggest the power Goku put out while fighting as a Super Saiyan was not as great as they thought. He was likely stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.

 

[Pyro]

He did respect Vegeta for surviving so long, though.

 

[SSJ2]

Is that meant to prove that S17 wasn't toying as much against Vegeta and co?

 

[Papasmurf]

Pretty much... but he got completely tooled.

 

[SSJ2]

That's my argument. The consistency is so whack that it's hard to make accurate judgments. I think you brought up the most sound piece of evidence though, Goku's power was not stated to be weaker than expected.

 

[Papasmurf]

I was responding to Pyrus saying that they praised Vegeta for surviving long, but yeah, that's also my main reason for the belief that SSJ Goku is the most powerful.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Goku knows Vegeta's power. I don't find it likely he would see Vegeta's condition and then fight using the same forms unless he was decently stronger. He also fought alone, so his gap should account for some of that too, since Vegeta had help and still got thrashed.

Vegeta however seems to hold the same advantage over everyone else, so he doesn't get left in the dust entirely.